User Research Is Storytelling
Ever since I was a boy, I’ve been fascinated with movies. I loved the characters and the excitement—but most of all the stories. I wanted to be an actor. And I believed that I’d get to do the things that Indiana Jones did and go on exciting adventures. I even dreamed up ideas for movies that my friends and I could make and star in. But they never went any further. I did, however, end up working in user experience (UX). Now, I realize that there’s an element of theater to UX—I hadn’t really considered it before, but user research is storytelling. And to get the most out of user research, you need to tell a good story where you bring stakeholders—the product team and decision makers—along and get them interested in learning more.
Think of your favorite movie. More than likely it follows a three-act structure that’s commonly seen in storytelling: the setup, the conflict, and the resolution. The first act shows what exists today, and it helps you get to know the characters and the challenges and problems that they face. Act two introduces the conflict, where the action is. Here, problems grow or get worse. And the third and final act is the resolution. This is where the issues are resolved and the characters learn and change. I believe that this structure is also a great way to think about user research, and I think that it can be especially helpful in explaining user research to others.
Use storytelling as a structure to do research
It’s sad to say, but many have come to see research as being expendable. If budgets or timelines are tight, research tends to be one of the first things to go. Instead of investing in research, some product managers rely on designers or—worse—their own opinion to make the “right” choices for users based on their experience or accepted best practices. That may get teams some of the way, but that approach can so easily miss out on solving users’ real problems. To remain user-centered, this is something we should avoid. User research elevates design. It keeps it on track, pointing to problems and opportunities. Being aware of the issues with your product and reacting to them can help you stay ahead of your competitors.
In the three-act structure, each act corresponds to a part of the process, and each part is critical to telling the whole story. Let’s look at the different acts and how they align with user research.
Act one: setup
The setup is all about understanding the background, and that’s where foundational research comes in. Foundational research (also called generative, discovery, or initial research) helps you understand users and identify their problems. You’re learning about what exists today, the challenges users have, and how the challenges affect them—just like in the movies. To do foundational research, you can conduct contextual inquiries or diary studies (or both!), which can help you start to identify problems as well as opportunities. It doesn’t need to be a huge investment in time or money.
Erika Hall writes about minimum viable ethnography, which can be as simple as spending 15 minutes with a user and asking them one thing: “‘Walk me through your day yesterday.’ That’s it. Present that one request. Shut up and listen to them for 15 minutes. Do your damndest to keep yourself and your interests out of it. Bam, you’re doing ethnography.” According to Hall, “[This] will probably prove quite illuminating. In the highly unlikely case that you didn’t learn anything new or useful, carry on with enhanced confidence in your direction.”
This makes total sense to me. And I love that this makes user research so accessible. You don’t need to prepare a lot of documentation; you can just recruit participants and do it! This can yield a wealth of information about your users, and it’ll help you better understand them and what’s going on in their lives. That’s really what act one is all about: understanding where users are coming from.
Jared Spool talks about the importance of foundational research and how it should form the bulk of your research. If you can draw from any additional user data that you can get your hands on, such as surveys or analytics, that can supplement what you’ve heard in the foundational studies or even point to areas that need further investigation. Together, all this data paints a clearer picture of the state of things and all its shortcomings. And that’s the beginning of a compelling story. It’s the point in the plot where you realize that the main characters—or the users in this case—are facing challenges that they need to overcome. Like in the movies, this is where you start to build empathy for the characters and root for them to succeed. And hopefully stakeholders are now doing the same. Their sympathy may be with their business, which could be losing money because users can’t complete certain tasks. Or maybe they do empathize with users’ struggles. Either way, act one is your initial hook to get the stakeholders interested and invested.
Once stakeholders begin to understand the value of foundational research, that can open doors to more opportunities that involve users in the decision-making process. And that can guide product teams toward being more user-centered. This benefits everyone—users, the product, and stakeholders. It’s like winning an Oscar in movie terms—it often leads to your product being well received and successful. And this can be an incentive for stakeholders to repeat this process with other products. Storytelling is the key to this process, and knowing how to tell a good story is the only way to get stakeholders to really care about doing more research.
This brings us to act two, where you iteratively evaluate a design or concept to see whether it addresses the issues.
Act two: conflict
Act two is all about digging deeper into the problems that you identified in act one. This usually involves directional research, such as usability tests, where you assess a potential solution (such as a design) to see whether it addresses the issues that you found. The issues could include unmet needs or problems with a flow or process that’s tripping users up. Like act two in a movie, more issues will crop up along the way. It’s here that you learn more about the characters as they grow and develop through this act.
Usability tests should typically include around five participants according to Jakob Nielsen, who found that that number of users can usually identify most of the problems: “As you add more and more users, you learn less and less because you will keep seeing the same things again and again… After the fifth user, you are wasting your time by observing the same findings repeatedly but not learning much new.”
There are parallels with storytelling here too; if you try to tell a story with too many characters, the plot may get lost. Having fewer participants means that each user’s struggles will be more memorable and easier to relay to other stakeholders when talking about the research. This can help convey the issues that need to be addressed while also highlighting the value of doing the research in the first place.
Researchers have run usability tests in person for decades, but you can also conduct usability tests remotely using tools like Microsoft Teams, Zoom, or other teleconferencing software. This approach has become increasingly popular since the beginning of the pandemic, and it works well. You can think of in-person usability tests like going to a play and remote sessions as more like watching a movie. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. In-person usability research is a much richer experience. Stakeholders can experience the sessions with other stakeholders. You also get real-time reactions—including surprise, agreement, disagreement, and discussions about what they’re seeing. Much like going to a play, where audiences get to take in the stage, the costumes, the lighting, and the actors’ interactions, in-person research lets you see users up close, including their body language, how they interact with the moderator, and how the scene is set up.
If in-person usability testing is like watching a play—staged and controlled—then conducting usability testing in the field is like immersive theater where any two sessions might be very different from one another. You can take usability testing into the field by creating a replica of the space where users interact with the product and then conduct your research there. Or you can go out to meet users at their location to do your research. With either option, you get to see how things work in context, things come up that wouldn’t have in a lab environment—and conversion can shift in entirely different directions. As researchers, you have less control over how these sessions go, but this can sometimes help you understand users even better. Meeting users where they are can provide clues to the external forces that could be affecting how they use your product. In-person usability tests provide another level of detail that’s often missing from remote usability tests.
That’s not to say that the “movies”—remote sessions—aren’t a good option. Remote sessions can reach a wider audience. They allow a lot more stakeholders to be involved in the research and to see what’s going on. And they open the doors to a much wider geographical pool of users. But with any remote session there is the potential of time wasted if participants can’t log in or get their microphone working.
The benefit of usability testing, whether remote or in person, is that you get to see real users interact with the designs in real time, and you can ask them questions to understand their thought processes and grasp of the solution. This can help you not only identify problems but also glean why they’re problems in the first place. Furthermore, you can test hypotheses and gauge whether your thinking is correct. By the end of the sessions, you’ll have a much clearer picture of how usable the designs are and whether they work for their intended purposes. Act two is the heart of the story—where the excitement is—but there can be surprises too. This is equally true of usability tests. Often, participants will say unexpected things, which change the way that you look at things—and these twists in the story can move things in new directions.
Unfortunately, user research is sometimes seen as expendable. And too often usability testing is the only research process that some stakeholders think that they ever need. In fact, if the designs that you’re evaluating in the usability test aren’t grounded in a solid understanding of your users (foundational research), there’s not much to be gained by doing usability testing in the first place. That’s because you’re narrowing the focus of what you’re getting feedback on, without understanding the users’ needs. As a result, there’s no way of knowing whether the designs might solve a problem that users have. It’s only feedback on a particular design in the context of a usability test.
On the other hand, if you only do foundational research, while you might have set out to solve the right problem, you won’t know whether the thing that you’re building will actually solve that. This illustrates the importance of doing both foundational and directional research.
In act two, stakeholders will—hopefully—get to watch the story unfold in the user sessions, which creates the conflict and tension in the current design by surfacing their highs and lows. And in turn, this can help motivate stakeholders to address the issues that come up.
Act three: resolution
While the first two acts are about understanding the background and the tensions that can propel stakeholders into action, the third part is about resolving the problems from the first two acts. While it’s important to have an audience for the first two acts, it’s crucial that they stick around for the final act. That means the whole product team, including developers, UX practitioners, business analysts, delivery managers, product managers, and any other stakeholders that have a say in the next steps. It allows the whole team to hear users’ feedback together, ask questions, and discuss what’s possible within the project’s constraints. And it lets the UX research and design teams clarify, suggest alternatives, or give more context behind their decisions. So you can get everyone on the same page and get agreement on the way forward.
This act is mostly told in voiceover with some audience participation. The researcher is the narrator, who paints a picture of the issues and what the future of the product could look like given the things that the team has learned. They give the stakeholders their recommendations and their guidance on creating this vision.
Nancy Duarte in the Harvard Business Review offers an approach to structuring presentations that follow a persuasive story. “The most effective presenters use the same techniques as great storytellers: By reminding people of the status quo and then revealing the path to a better way, they set up a conflict that needs to be resolved,” writes Duarte. “That tension helps them persuade the audience to adopt a new mindset or behave differently.”
This type of structure aligns well with research results, and particularly results from usability tests. It provides evidence for “what is”—the problems that you’ve identified. And “what could be”—your recommendations on how to address them. And so on and so forth.
You can reinforce your recommendations with examples of things that competitors are doing that could address these issues or with examples where competitors are gaining an edge. Or they can be visual, like quick mockups of how a new design could look that solves a problem. These can help generate conversation and momentum. And this continues until the end of the session when you’ve wrapped everything up in the conclusion by summarizing the main issues and suggesting a way forward. This is the part where you reiterate the main themes or problems and what they mean for the product—the denouement of the story. This stage gives stakeholders the next steps and hopefully the momentum to take those steps!
While we are nearly at the end of this story, let’s reflect on the idea that user research is storytelling. All the elements of a good story are there in the three-act structure of user research:
- Act one: You meet the protagonists (the users) and the antagonists (the problems affecting users). This is the beginning of the plot. In act one, researchers might use methods including contextual inquiry, ethnography, diary studies, surveys, and analytics. The output of these methods can include personas, empathy maps, user journeys, and analytics dashboards.
- Act two: Next, there’s character development. There’s conflict and tension as the protagonists encounter problems and challenges, which they must overcome. In act two, researchers might use methods including usability testing, competitive benchmarking, and heuristics evaluation. The output of these can include usability findings reports, UX strategy documents, usability guidelines, and best practices.
- Act three: The protagonists triumph and you see what a better future looks like. In act three, researchers may use methods including presentation decks, storytelling, and digital media. The output of these can be: presentation decks, video clips, audio clips, and pictures.
The researcher has multiple roles: they’re the storyteller, the director, and the producer. The participants have a small role, but they are significant characters (in the research). And the stakeholders are the audience. But the most important thing is to get the story right and to use storytelling to tell users’ stories through research. By the end, the stakeholders should walk away with a purpose and an eagerness to resolve the product’s ills.
So the next time that you’re planning research with clients or you’re speaking to stakeholders about research that you’ve done, think about how you can weave in some storytelling. Ultimately, user research is a win-win for everyone, and you just need to get stakeholders interested in how the story ends.
From Beta to Bedrock: Build Products that Stick.
As a product builder over too many years to mention, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve seen promising ideas go from zero to hero in a few weeks, only to fizzle out within months.
Financial products, which is the field I work in, are no exception. With people’s real hard-earned money on the line, user expectations running high, and a crowded market, it’s tempting to throw as many features at the wall as possible and hope something sticks. But this approach is a recipe for disaster. Here’s why:
The pitfalls of feature-first development
When you start building a financial product from the ground up, or are migrating existing customer journeys from paper or telephony channels onto online banking or mobile apps, it’s easy to get caught up in the excitement of creating new features. You might think, “If I can just add one more thing that solves this particular user problem, they’ll love me!” But what happens when you inevitably hit a roadblock because the narcs (your security team!) don’t like it? When a hard-fought feature isn’t as popular as you thought, or it breaks due to unforeseen complexity?
This is where the concept of Minimum Viable Product (MVP) comes in. Jason Fried’s book Getting Real and his podcast Rework often touch on this idea, even if he doesn’t always call it that. An MVP is a product that provides just enough value to your users to keep them engaged, but not so much that it becomes overwhelming or difficult to maintain. It sounds like an easy concept but it requires a razor sharp eye, a ruthless edge and having the courage to stick by your opinion because it is easy to be seduced by “the Columbo Effect”… when there’s always “just one more thing…” that someone wants to add.
The problem with most finance apps, however, is that they often become a reflection of the internal politics of the business rather than an experience solely designed around the customer. This means that the focus is on delivering as many features and functionalities as possible to satisfy the needs and desires of competing internal departments, rather than providing a clear value proposition that is focused on what the people out there in the real world want. As a result, these products can very easily bloat to become a mixed bag of confusing, unrelated and ultimately unlovable customer experiences—a feature salad, you might say.
The importance of bedrock
So what’s a better approach? How can we build products that are stable, user-friendly, and—most importantly—stick?
That’s where the concept of “bedrock” comes in. Bedrock is the core element of your product that truly matters to users. It’s the fundamental building block that provides value and stays relevant over time.
In the world of retail banking, which is where I work, the bedrock has got to be in and around the regular servicing journeys. People open their current account once in a blue moon but they look at it every day. They sign up for a credit card every year or two, but they check their balance and pay their bill at least once a month.
Identifying the core tasks that people want to do and then relentlessly striving to make them easy to do, dependable, and trustworthy is where the gravy’s at.
But how do you get to bedrock? By focusing on the “MVP” approach, prioritizing simplicity, and iterating towards a clear value proposition. This means cutting out unnecessary features and focusing on delivering real value to your users.
It also means having some guts, because your colleagues might not always instantly share your vision to start with. And controversially, sometimes it can even mean making it clear to customers that you’re not going to come to their house and make their dinner. The occasional “opinionated user interface design” (i.e. clunky workaround for edge cases) might sometimes be what you need to use to test a concept or buy you space to work on something more important.
Practical strategies for building financial products that stick
So what are the key strategies I’ve learned from my own experience and research?
- Start with a clear “why”: What problem are you trying to solve? For whom? Make sure your mission is crystal clear before building anything. Make sure it aligns with your company’s objectives, too.
- Focus on a single, core feature and obsess on getting that right before moving on to something else: Resist the temptation to add too many features at once. Instead, choose one that delivers real value and iterate from there.
- Prioritize simplicity over complexity: Less is often more when it comes to financial products. Cut out unnecessary bells and whistles and keep the focus on what matters most.
- Embrace continuous iteration: Bedrock isn’t a fixed destination—it’s a dynamic process. Continuously gather user feedback, refine your product, and iterate towards that bedrock state.
- Stop, look and listen: Don’t just test your product as part of your delivery process—test it repeatedly in the field. Use it yourself. Run A/B tests. Gather user feedback. Talk to people who use it, and refine accordingly.
The bedrock paradox
There’s an interesting paradox at play here: building towards bedrock means sacrificing some short-term growth potential in favour of long-term stability. But the payoff is worth it—products built with a focus on bedrock will outlast and outperform their competitors, and deliver sustained value to users over time.
So, how do you start your journey towards bedrock? Take it one step at a time. Start by identifying those core elements that truly matter to your users. Focus on building and refining a single, powerful feature that delivers real value. And above all, test obsessively—for, in the words of Abraham Lincoln, Alan Kay, or Peter Drucker (whomever you believe!!), “The best way to predict the future is to create it.”
An Holistic Framework for Shared Design Leadership
Picture this: You’re in a meeting room at your tech company, and two people are having what looks like the same conversation about the same design problem. One is talking about whether the team has the right skills to tackle it. The other is diving deep into whether the solution actually solves the user’s problem. Same room, same problem, completely different lenses.
This is the beautiful, sometimes messy reality of having both a Design Manager and a Lead Designer on the same team. And if you’re wondering how to make this work without creating confusion, overlap, or the dreaded “too many cooks” scenario, you’re asking the right question.
The traditional answer has been to draw clean lines on an org chart. The Design Manager handles people, the Lead Designer handles craft. Problem solved, right? Except clean org charts are fantasy. In reality, both roles care deeply about team health, design quality, and shipping great work.
The magic happens when you embrace the overlap instead of fighting it—when you start thinking of your design org as a design organism.
The Anatomy of a Healthy Design Team
Here’s what I’ve learned from years of being on both sides of this equation: think of your design team as a living organism. The Design Manager tends to the mind (the psychological safety, the career growth, the team dynamics). The Lead Designer tends to the body (the craft skills, the design standards, the hands-on work that ships to users).
But just like mind and body aren’t completely separate systems, so, too, do these roles overlap in important ways. You can’t have a healthy person without both working in harmony. The trick is knowing where those overlaps are and how to navigate them gracefully.
When we look at how healthy teams actually function, three critical systems emerge. Each requires both roles to work together, but with one taking primary responsibility for keeping that system strong.
The Nervous System: People & Psychology
Primary caretaker: Design Manager
Supporting role: Lead Designer
The nervous system is all about signals, feedback, and psychological safety. When this system is healthy, information flows freely, people feel safe to take risks, and the team can adapt quickly to new challenges.
The Design Manager is the primary caretaker here. They’re monitoring the team’s psychological pulse, ensuring feedback loops are healthy, and creating the conditions for people to grow. They’re hosting career conversations, managing workload, and making sure no one burns out.
But the Lead Designer plays a crucial supporting role. They’re providing sensory input about craft development needs, spotting when someone’s design skills are stagnating, and helping identify growth opportunities that the Design Manager might miss.
Design Manager tends to:
- Career conversations and growth planning
- Team psychological safety and dynamics
- Workload management and resource allocation
- Performance reviews and feedback systems
- Creating learning opportunities
Lead Designer supports by:
- Providing craft-specific feedback on team member development
- Identifying design skill gaps and growth opportunities
- Offering design mentorship and guidance
- Signaling when team members are ready for more complex challenges
The Muscular System: Craft & Execution
Primary caretaker: Lead Designer
Supporting role: Design Manager
The muscular system is about strength, coordination, and skill development. When this system is healthy, the team can execute complex design work with precision, maintain consistent quality, and adapt their craft to new challenges.
The Lead Designer is the primary caretaker here. They’re setting design standards, providing craft coaching, and ensuring that shipping work meets the quality bar. They’re the ones who can tell you if a design decision is sound or if we’re solving the right problem.
But the Design Manager plays a crucial supporting role. They’re ensuring the team has the resources and support to do their best craft work, like proper nutrition and recovery time for an athlete.
Lead Designer tends to:
- Definition of design standards and system usage
- Feedback on what design work meets the standard
- Experience direction for the product
- Design decisions and product-wide alignment
- Innovation and craft advancement
Design Manager supports by:
- Ensuring design standards are understood and adopted across the team
- Confirming experience direction is being followed
- Supporting practices and systems that scale without bottlenecking
- Facilitating design alignment across teams
- Providing resources and removing obstacles to great craft work
The Circulatory System: Strategy & Flow
Shared caretakers: Both Design Manager and Lead Designer
The circulatory system is about how information, decisions, and energy flow through the team. When this system is healthy, strategic direction is clear, priorities are aligned, and the team can respond quickly to new opportunities or challenges.
This is where true partnership happens. Both roles are responsible for keeping the circulation strong, but they’re bringing different perspectives to the table.
Lead Designer contributes:
- User needs are met by the product
- Overall product quality and experience
- Strategic design initiatives
- Research-based user needs for each initiative
Design Manager contributes:
- Communication to team and stakeholders
- Stakeholder management and alignment
- Cross-functional team accountability
- Strategic business initiatives
Both collaborate on:
- Co-creation of strategy with leadership
- Team goals and prioritization approach
- Organizational structure decisions
- Success measures and frameworks
Keeping the Organism Healthy
The key to making this partnership sing is understanding that all three systems need to work together. A team with great craft skills but poor psychological safety will burn out. A team with great culture but weak craft execution will ship mediocre work. A team with both but poor strategic circulation will work hard on the wrong things.
Be Explicit About Which System You’re Tending
When you’re in a meeting about a design problem, it helps to acknowledge which system you’re primarily focused on. “I’m thinking about this from a team capacity perspective” (nervous system) or “I’m looking at this through the lens of user needs” (muscular system) gives everyone context for your input.
This isn’t about staying in your lane. It’s about being transparent as to which lens you’re using, so the other person knows how to best add their perspective.
Create Healthy Feedback Loops
The most successful partnerships I’ve seen establish clear feedback loops between the systems:
Nervous system signals to muscular system: “The team is struggling with confidence in their design skills” → Lead Designer provides more craft coaching and clearer standards.
Muscular system signals to nervous system: “The team’s craft skills are advancing faster than their project complexity” → Design Manager finds more challenging growth opportunities.
Both systems signal to circulatory system: “We’re seeing patterns in team health and craft development that suggest we need to adjust our strategic priorities.”
Handle Handoffs Gracefully
The most critical moments in this partnership are when something moves from one system to another. This might be when a design standard (muscular system) needs to be rolled out across the team (nervous system), or when a strategic initiative (circulatory system) needs specific craft execution (muscular system).
Make these transitions explicit. “I’ve defined the new component standards. Can you help me think through how to get the team up to speed?” or “We’ve agreed on this strategic direction. I’m going to focus on the specific user experience approach from here.”
Stay Curious, Not Territorial
The Design Manager who never thinks about craft, or the Lead Designer who never considers team dynamics, is like a doctor who only looks at one body system. Great design leadership requires both people to care about the whole organism, even when they’re not the primary caretaker.
This means asking questions rather than making assumptions. “What do you think about the team’s craft development in this area?” or “How do you see this impacting team morale and workload?” keeps both perspectives active in every decision.
When the Organism Gets Sick
Even with clear roles, this partnership can go sideways. Here are the most common failure modes I’ve seen:
System Isolation
The Design Manager focuses only on the nervous system and ignores craft development. The Lead Designer focuses only on the muscular system and ignores team dynamics. Both people retreat to their comfort zones and stop collaborating.
The symptoms: Team members get mixed messages, work quality suffers, morale drops.
The treatment: Reconnect around shared outcomes. What are you both trying to achieve? Usually it’s great design work that ships on time from a healthy team. Figure out how both systems serve that goal.
Poor Circulation
Strategic direction is unclear, priorities keep shifting, and neither role is taking responsibility for keeping information flowing.
The symptoms: Team members are confused about priorities, work gets duplicated or dropped, deadlines are missed.
The treatment: Explicitly assign responsibility for circulation. Who’s communicating what to whom? How often? What’s the feedback loop?
Autoimmune Response
One person feels threatened by the other’s expertise. The Design Manager thinks the Lead Designer is undermining their authority. The Lead Designer thinks the Design Manager doesn’t understand craft.
The symptoms: Defensive behavior, territorial disputes, team members caught in the middle.
The treatment: Remember that you’re both caretakers of the same organism. When one system fails, the whole team suffers. When both systems are healthy, the team thrives.
The Payoff
Yes, this model requires more communication. Yes, it requires both people to be secure enough to share responsibility for team health. But the payoff is worth it: better decisions, stronger teams, and design work that’s both excellent and sustainable.
When both roles are healthy and working well together, you get the best of both worlds: deep craft expertise and strong people leadership. When one person is out sick, on vacation, or overwhelmed, the other can help maintain the team’s health. When a decision requires both the people perspective and the craft perspective, you’ve got both right there in the room.
Most importantly, the framework scales. As your team grows, you can apply the same system thinking to new challenges. Need to launch a design system? Lead Designer tends to the muscular system (standards and implementation), Design Manager tends to the nervous system (team adoption and change management), and both tend to circulation (communication and stakeholder alignment).
The Bottom Line
The relationship between a Design Manager and Lead Designer isn’t about dividing territories. It’s about multiplying impact. When both roles understand they’re tending to different aspects of the same healthy organism, magic happens.
The mind and body work together. The team gets both the strategic thinking and the craft excellence they need. And most importantly, the work that ships to users benefits from both perspectives.
So the next time you’re in that meeting room, wondering why two people are talking about the same problem from different angles, remember: you’re watching shared leadership in action. And if it’s working well, both the mind and body of your design team are getting stronger.
How to Own Your Small Business Marketing with Sara Nay
How to Own Your Small Business Marketing with Sara Nay written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing
Listen to the full episode: Overview In this second episode of a special series on her new book “Unchained,” Sara Nay returns to the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast to join John Jantsch in breaking down the shift from traditional agency dependency to a practical, strategy-first, AI-enabled in-house marketing model. Sara explains why the agency model […]
How to Own Your Small Business Marketing with Sara Nay written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing
Overview
In this second episode of a special series on her new book “Unchained,” Sara Nay returns to the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast to join John Jantsch in breaking down the shift from traditional agency dependency to a practical, strategy-first, AI-enabled in-house marketing model. Sara explains why the agency model is breaking down for both clients and agencies, the hidden costs of outsourcing without ownership, and why small businesses need to reclaim control of their marketing assets. Learn what it means to become an orchestrator (not just a doer), why asset ownership matters, and how AI is empowering teams for smarter, leaner growth.
About the Guest
Sara Nay is CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and author of “Unchained: Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models.” With 15+ years in the field, Sara’s mission is to help small businesses and agency leaders break free from outdated marketing dependencies and build assets, teams, and systems that drive sustainable, long-term growth.
- Book: Unchained: Breaking Free From Broken Marketing Models
- Website: unchainedmodel.com
- LinkedIn: Sara Nay
Actionable Insights
- The traditional agency model is burning out: agencies are treated as “vendors/doers” and clients lose control over their own marketing.
- Outsourcing execution without understanding the strategy or owning the accounts leads to lost control, dependency, and costly vendor lock-in.
- Businesses should always own their digital accounts, ad assets, and AI systems, ensuring marketing investments build long-term value.
- Simplify marketing by narrowing focus to the channels that matter most—driven by a clear strategy and understanding of your target market.
- The role of the fractional CMO is evolving: today’s leaders must deliver strategy, execution, and build AI-enabled systems that are true business assets.
- AI is shifting marketers from “doers” to orchestrators—freeing up time for strategy, creativity, and higher-value thinking.
- Business leaders should future-proof their teams by helping them identify and elevate skills that can’t be replaced by AI.
- Strategy is not just for big companies; it’s the key to simplification, focus, and maximizing ROI for small businesses.
Great Moments (with Timestamps)
- 01:19 – Why the Agency Model is Breaking Down
Sara explains why the traditional agency structure is burning out both agencies and clients. - 03:22 – The Real Costs of Outsourcing Without Ownership
The dangers of not owning your digital marketing assets and accounts. - 06:00 – Simplification Through Strategy
Why “do less, but do it brilliantly” is the new mantra for small business marketing. - 09:51 – From Doer to Orchestrator: AI’s Role in Team Evolution
How AI enables marketers to elevate from task execution to system orchestration and creative thinking. - 12:15 – Can Anyone Become More Strategic?
Sara discusses how leaders can help team members level up—plus her own journey from operator to strategist. - 15:52 – Marketing as an Asset: What Ownership Looks Like
The importance of owning strategy, execution, and digital assets for long-term business value. - 18:59 – The Fractional CMO Plus Model
How the “plus” means not just strategy, but management, execution, and building AI systems inside the business.
Insights
“If you ever want to leave the contractor, you basically are going to have to rebuild everything from scratch in your own account. Asset ownership matters.”
“AI isn’t just about replacing tasks—it’s about elevating your team to focus on strategy, creativity, and empathy.”
“Simplifying marketing isn’t about doing less for the sake of less—it’s about doing the right things brilliantly and with clear purpose.”
“The most important asset in your business is the marketing system you own and understand—not just what an outside vendor controls.”
“Fractional CMO Plus isn’t just part-time leadership; it’s strategy, execution, and building the marketing systems and assets that make your business more valuable.”
John Jantsch (00:00.792)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is Jon Jantsch. My guest today is Sarah Nay. She’s the CEO of Duct Tape Marketing and the author of Unchained, Breaking Free from Broken Marketing Models. She spent over 15 years helping small businesses grow through a strategy-first marketing approach. This is actually part two of talking about her new book. You can go back. have it in the show notes. So we’ll link all these shows together. I think we’re going to end up doing three episodes on it.
In this episode, we’re going to talk about the anti-agency shift, a practical blueprint for replacing dependency on vendors with in-house capability, lean AI enabled systems and strategic leadership. So Sarah, welcome back to the show.
Sara Nay (00:44.911)
Thank you. I’m still getting used to being called an author. It’s new for me. It’s a new title. It’s exciting. Thank you.
John Jantsch (00:47.566)
Well, congratulations. So, this is part two of the book. So again, I remind you to go back and listen to what we talked about in the first part of the book. In the previous episode, we’re up to about chapter five or so. And it’s kind of a turning point in this part of the book where you talk about the old model fading, or not just fading, but that it’s actually burning out. What’s actually breaking down inside of
agencies right
Sara Nay (01:19.096)
Yeah. And so when I, we say the anti-agency model, I always like to reinforce it’s, it’s not that agencies are bad. It’s that we love agencies and I feel like I have to keep saying that because there are people and I don’t want to offend anyone. It’s the model and how it’s structured is what I see breaking apart. And so on the agency side, which we’ve lived ourselves, we’ve experienced all of this ourselves. There’s always been a lot of issues in the way things are structured.
John Jantsch (01:24.238)
We love agencies.
Sara Nay (01:44.798)
One being that a lot of agencies are treated as vendors and doers. They get a lot of scope creep. There’s a lot of burnout in the agency space. It’s hard work. As an agency owner or leader, scaling with profitability has always been a challenge. There’s a lot of issues when you are in the executor role as an agency. But also, this book is written for agencies, but also for small businesses, because there’s a lot of issues on the small business side as well.
when they’re over reliant on agencies for execution. So I’m not saying a small business should never execute, or outsource, but if they are outsourcing, they should still understand the strategy, they should understand what’s happening, they should own the accounts or systems that are being executed within. And so it’s more of a collaboration effort.
when you’re working with outsourced vendors, then simply I’m paying this company and I have no idea what they’re doing. And I don’t know if we’re getting results, but I keep paying them because I always have, which a lot of people unfortunately fall into that bucket.
John Jantsch (02:47.222)
Yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting. I mean, I’ve said for years that a lot of small businesses, it’s actually beyond outsourcing. kind of abdicated, you know, it’s like, don’t, you know, you do that over there, like, cause I hate marketing even. mean, you hear that even in, and it’s, it’s a real shame because I mean, what do you, what do you, where have you seen, maybe they’re not even hidden costs. Let’s just say costs of outsourcing everything, or just as you said, basically,
Sara Nay (02:55.897)
Yep.
John Jantsch (03:15.886)
you know, throwing it to somebody and saying, I don’t even know what they’re doing over there. I just write the check every month. What are, what are the real costs of doing
Sara Nay (03:22.714)
You lose control, honestly, and you have no idea if your marketing is working or not. And so I was speaking to a prospect a while back and they were a home remodeling company, family business, really nice, great people. they were like, we are paying someone, I think it was around $10,000 a month for paid ads. And they’re like, we don’t know what they’re doing, if it’s working, some percent of that is going to their fees, some percent of that is going to spend.
John Jantsch (03:24.365)
Yeah.
Sara Nay (03:50.326)
And so we had a conversation. started asking him number of questions and I was like, well, can we look at your accounts to see, you know, what’s happening in there? And they were like, the contractor owns the accounts. They’re not ours. And so we had to have a conversation with them as to, if you ever want to leave the contractor, you basically are going to have to rebuild everything from scratch in your own account.
But the reason for doing that is because you’re building an asset, paid ads is an asset, because the more you use it, the more you pay, the more you spend, the better it’s gonna get over time as long as you’re optimizing effectively. And so because they were trusting this contractor with their ads, they had no idea if they were getting return. And then basically they were tied to this contractor for life unless they wanted to start over from scratch again. So it’s really the whole.
you know, a of businesses, lot of business owners get into business because they’re passionate about something or they see an opportunity, but they ultimately then have to learn marketing in a lot of cases. And so if they don’t have the time or the interest in even learning marketing, they often then just say, we’ll find a contractor or agency or someone to do it. And then they’re essentially putting all of their trust in someone else because they don’t have the knowledge. And then they’re just putting trust into someone else that hopefully is a good solution. But
Unfortunately, it’s not always the case.
John Jantsch (05:12.802)
So, you know, over the years, marketing has gotten more complex. At least it feels that way for a lot of businesses. Certainly when digital came along and, you know, now let’s throw AI into the mix. I think a lot of a lot of business owners are just thinking, look, it’s so complex. I don’t want to deal with it. I can’t deal with it. Somebody help me. And unfortunately, you know, they’re not always working with people that they have a lot of trust in. And I hate to say it, but
Sara Nay (05:29.839)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (05:41.912)
you some businesses kind of try to over make it overly complex because it’s like, SEO is really hard. You don’t understand it. You know, you need me to, know, to do it for you. how, how can you simplify? How can you begin to simplify a small business marketing without sacrificing results?
Sara Nay (05:46.701)
Yeah.
Sara Nay (05:50.287)
Yeah.
Sara Nay (06:00.762)
Yeah, absolutely. So we used to have on our website, I don’t think we have it on there anymore, but we had something along the lines of do less, but do it brilliantly. And that always really resonated with me because a lot of small businesses are told that they need to be on this channel, on this channel, on this channel, doing this and this and this. And all of a sudden they sign up for all these accounts and they have no idea what’s actually performing well and what’s not. And so we always help people take a step back.
and actually map out the business strategy, the marketing strategy and the team strategy. And that is a great way to really simplify your marketing because you don’t need to be on every single channel. You need to deeply understand your target market. Where do they hang out online? And that’s where you should be directing your focus. And so oftentimes in small business with small teams, less channels, but doing them really well is the solution versus being spread too thin.
Also, thing I would say too is we’ve always on our team at Ducty Marketing, we’ve always hired people that we see as like trainers or leaders. That’s some of our values that we’re looking for. And so if you’re thinking about working with an outsourced solution as a business owner, make sure you’re looking for people that will come in and they’ll talk strategy from the beginning and they’ll ask you hard questions, business related questions from the beginning.
because that’s someone that’s really looking to understand what you’re actually trying to accomplish and not just copying and pasting a campaign from someone else. And so you want to look for someone that’s thinking strategically from the start, but also willing to teach you and educate you along the way. And so when we’re working with clients as a fractional CMO, like we’re creating the strategy, but then we’re meeting with our clients on a very consistent basis. And we’re not just saying,
Here’s your monthly reports and metrics that look foreign to you. We’re digesting them, we’re talking about them, we’re educating our clients with the idea of if they leave us one day, they’re gonna be set up for better success, they’re more educated, they can make better decisions moving forward in the future.
John Jantsch (07:52.737)
me.
John Jantsch (08:01.358)
Yeah, I think that’s one of the, you know, the, the crimes of a lot of, uh, tactics sellers is they, you know, they have these tools that’ll create automated reports, but you know, there’s no insight into it. And most, you know, most business owners have no idea what they’re looking at or why they should pay attention to, to one number or another. You know, you mentioned that, that idea of complexity or simplifying, you know, I think one of the major misconceptions of this idea of strategy, uh, before tactics for a lot of businesses is that they.
you know, a small business thinks, strategy, that’s just for bigger, more complex businesses that need, you know, need more things. Well, it actually is the opposite. I think in that, I think it really simplifies them. Like here’s, here’s a narrower focus here. Here’s what we do. Here’s who we’re after. mean, I think it actually does allow you to simplify what tactics you end up employing.
Sara Nay (08:52.064)
Yeah, I agree. It absolutely simplifies it. Also, I always tell people it gives purpose to your marketing. Without a strategy in place, you are playing the guessing game. And so when you take a step back and you identify your ideal client, your core message, your customer journey, like those are the three starting points. Then all of sudden you’re thinking about growth priorities and execution calendar, but all of the decisions you’re putting into the growth priorities and execution calendars
John Jantsch (08:55.214)
Right.
John Jantsch (09:15.256)
Peace.
Sara Nay (09:16.546)
are based on your ideal clients and the research you would have conducted. And so it simplifies and it gives purpose. So you’re not creating random acts of marketing essentially.
John Jantsch (09:27.458)
Yeah. So a lot of the roles in marketing, both at the business owner level, and then also at the agency level, I think are really evolving as new technology and the changes in technology. You talk about this idea of moving the people inside of organizations need to move from being doers to more like orchestrators. What does that shift look like?
Sara Nay (09:51.167)
Yeah, it’s a great question and topic I love talking about. So if you think about before AI, way back then, we had people on our team that their core role was content production. So if we had blog posts that we were writing for clients, they would do manual research, they would create an outline, they would do some more key word research, they would write the first draft.
John Jantsch (09:58.508)
last week.
Sara Nay (10:14.478)
They would edit it, they would optimize it from an SEO standpoint. They would do all of that stuff manual. So that’s an example of a very doer situation. Now with the evolution of AI, we’re able to elevate those people from doers to orchestrators where they’re using AI systems below them to help with a lot of the heavy lifting. So they’re using AI to help with keyword research, deep research, maybe even before writing any content.
John Jantsch (10:22.158)
Mm-hmm.
Sara Nay (10:40.758)
And then they’re using AI systems to help write initial drafts. And then they’re, they’re editing as humans on the back end. And so it’s still human AI human, but they’re overseeing a system and set of processes instead of being in the weeds for everything. And so it’s been interesting because it’s shifting doers from like doing all of the stuff to really almost a management role. They’re not managing people, but they’re managing systems.
And so we’ve identified that with our team and also with our clients teams as well. And so really, when you think about it that way, you’re thinking about how can AI elevate our team members, not to just make them be more productive or get a lot faster in the work that they’re doing, which I think originally is where people were thinking with AI. It’s more so how can we elevate our team to be able to spend more time being high level and creative and thinking like humans and being empathetic and understanding the big picture.
And so it’s elevating, not just replacing time.
John Jantsch (11:40.396)
So one of the big questions I think that that brings is, you know, there are people that are really good at doing, there are people that are really good at crunching numbers. You know, there are people that are really good at strategic thinking. Does this mean, I mean, can everybody make this shift, you think, to thinking more strategically, to actually writing an article and then asking AI what’s missing? You know, where are the gaps in this? I mean, that’s strategic thinking rather than doer thinking. So do you believe that that
means a lot of organizations are going to have to put different people on the bus or can they level them up?
Sara Nay (12:15.479)
I think it will be harder for some people, no questions asked. Some people are more strategic. Some people are give me a process and I’ll follow it. You know, not that strategic side of things. But I think as business leaders, our time is now to help our team level up as much as possible. Because if someone
is really great at certain tasks that AI is better at already. They’re not necessarily future-proofing their career. And so that’s why with our team, we’ve really thought about everyone individually as team members, and we’ve helped them analyze what they’re doing on a consistent basis and then identified where they should spend their focus and time moving forward. And I suggest everyone do that with their teams moving forward is…
analyze what skills they should focus on and where they need to elevate and then give them the support to be able to elevate and grow because there are certain things that we won’t be better at, we aren’t better at than AI is. so like research, for example, AI is way better research than I ever will be and ever want to be. And so if research is your thing, maybe think about how can you grow and evolve to continue to work alongside AI because that’s how you’ll become irreplaceable.
versus competing against AI.
John Jantsch (13:33.26)
Yeah, I mean, I think it’s definitely a career mindset shift. I also think that I think it can come from practice with practice, frankly. know, mean, sure, I’m used to doing it a certain way. Now with these tools, you know, it’s almost like I have a coworker is how I need to think about it. And I mean, even to the extent of I mean, I, sometimes hate how agreeable AI is.
Sara Nay (13:53.935)
Yeah.
Sara Nay (13:58.763)
Mm-hmm.
John Jantsch (13:58.862)
You know, to the extent where you’re actually willing to go, no, tell me, tell it like it is, like challenge me on this. I think when you just, you kind of through practice, I think you can, you can actually get better. It’s basically just a process. It’s just a different process.
Sara Nay (14:03.405)
Yeah.
Sara Nay (14:13.838)
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And also you can move to be, you can learn to be more strategic as well. So if you’re listening to this and you feel like you’re an operator, an executor, your process and systems oriented, you’ve never really had that strategic side. I do think you can evolve and grow. So we’ve taken CliftonStrengths over the years. And when I first started at Duct Tape Marketing in 2010, we took one early on and I was like systems operator.
John Jantsch (14:34.243)
Right.
Sara Nay (14:39.81)
very far on that side of things. can’t remember all the language, but I was very much on that side of things. recently we took it a few years ago and I was more on the strategic side of things. And that’s just naturally how I’ve grown over my career. And so I do think you can also evolve as well if you don’t feel like you’re very strategic, put some things in place to free up some mental space to be more strategic. And I think you can grow that muscle as well.
John Jantsch (15:04.674)
Yeah, it’s interesting. Since I’ve known you all your life, I think that I can easily say this that, you know, it’s partly how you view yourself. You know, your role changed and you started viewing yourself differently, I suspect. And that probably led to some of the some of the answers in there. And I think that that, you really can look, mean, can we go as far as saying AI is a personal development tool? But I mean, it is forcing some personal development.
Sara Nay (15:09.56)
Yeah.
Sara Nay (15:29.241)
It’s okay.
John Jantsch (15:33.644)
I think for people to kind of adjust to how they’re going to live inside of that. Let’s move on to asset, the term asset. You frame marketing execution can and should be an asset inside of business, one that they own rather than rent is the term that you’ve used. What does owning execution look
Sara Nay (15:52.635)
Yeah. So we’ve talked a lot about some stories so far about people, but I would consider renting their marketing. So they were just completely relying on outsourced partners had no idea what they were doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so that’s an example of renting. Let’s go back to owning for a small business. It really comes down to understanding the strategy behind what’s being done. And then as the founder or CEO,
John Jantsch (16:02.846)
But unfortunately, they didn’t look at the lease that they signed, right?
Sara Nay (16:20.538)
working alongside a fractional CMO or a marketing leader or a marketing strategist or an advisor, internal or external, it doesn’t matter, but someone that can really lead the marketing department. And so you’re collaborating and working with that person. So you’re in the know, you’re aware of what’s being done and the why behind it and the metrics and what’s working and not. And so as a CEO or founder, you don’t have to be a CMO, but you need to have conversations with someone that’s leading your marketing on a regular basis.
And then from there is the execution piece. think with the evolution of AI, it has made it for the first time ever, a lot more affordable for small businesses to be able to handle execution. So before everyone just, or not everyone, but a lot of people would just outsource content creation, social, SEO, paid ads, because before you would really need roles within the business for each of those areas. But now with the evolution of AI, I think is if you have marketing,
people in your department that understand those different areas, you can layer AI systems below them and they can do more than they ever had before. But when I talk about owning, like I know it doesn’t always make sense to have in-house marketing team for small businesses. So I’m not saying that’s the only solution. I think it is a great solution now. But if you’re like, I don’t want to deal with managing team or hiring, the whole idea of owning then is
John Jantsch (17:24.258)
Yeah.
Sara Nay (17:45.816)
work with a fractional CMO then that is going to bring in their own team, but they’re collaborating and working with you. And so again, the whole thing is you own what’s being done. You understand what’s being done. And you also own your website and your paid accounts and all of the assets, your chat, GPT or whatever the AI tools that are being used. Like you should own those assets because ultimately if you are going to sell the business one day,
John Jantsch (18:05.751)
Yeah.
Sara Nay (18:13.282)
you need a marketing system that you own that’s getting results that would come with the sale because that’s going to obviously increase the value.
John Jantsch (18:21.548)
Yeah. And I’d push back a little bit. I mean, I think you do have to own the strategy. You have to understand why we’re doing what we’re doing, what we’re trying to accomplish, or otherwise the SEO firm and the paid ads firm, we’re just going to rip you off. And that’s, that’s where I think people really get in trouble. let’s, let’s finish up on this term, fractional CMO, that you’ve mentioned several times. It’s, you know, the term itself has been around, I don’t know, at least 10 years. but,
Sara Nay (18:25.903)
Yes.
Sara Nay (18:32.793)
Yeah.
Yep, absolutely.
John Jantsch (18:45.166)
We have kind of coined a new phrase, I’d like to say, of the fractional CMO plus or FCMO plus. Give us a little distinction between that and the traditional kind of fractional sell a fourth of my time, you know, kind of role.
Sara Nay (18:59.322)
Yeah. And so you just identified like the traditional role is, you know, you get a fourth of my time and I come in and I advise that’s kind of in a very quick nutshell. What a lot of people think of fractional for us, when we work with clients, we come in as a fractional CMO, we create the overall strategy, but we have fractional CMO plus because it doesn’t end there. From there, we’re then able to manage internal marketing teams to up level them.
So marketing plus that, or we’re able to bring our team in to help with the execution as well. So really what we’re doing is we’re combining the agency side of things that we’ve always done with the fractional CMO side of things. And so we’re bringing strategy plus execution. And really the role of the fractional CMO is creating the strategy, working alongside the CEO.
managing all of really the marketing department in a sense, really owning the metrics and communicating those to the CEO and then also owning the budget as well.
John Jantsch (20:00.12)
Well, and increasingly building AI systems and tools inside of business. So again, it does kind of give them something tangible to own. Well, Sarah, I appreciate you stopping by for part two of the Unchained series. You want to tell people where they can find, connect with you and find more about the book Unchained or any of the work that you do as a fractional CMO.
Sara Nay (20:23.308)
Of course. So the book is unchainedmodel.com is the website. It also is going to be available on Amazon starting August 13th. Not sure when this will go live, but it’s going to be there on August 13th. Yes, it will still be there. And then obviously our website, stucktapemarketing.com and LinkedIn is a great platform to connect with me as well.
John Jantsch (20:34.946)
Well, it’ll live for a long time on the, on the ether in the ether. So, yep. Yep.
John Jantsch (20:45.942)
Awesome. Well, again, appreciate you. Stop by and hopefully we’ll see you out there on the road someday soon.
Sara Nay (20:52.314)
Thanks everyone.
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Alien: Earth Study Guide – Noah Hawley Reveals His Alien TV Prequel Inspirations
Writer, director, and producer Noah Hawley has a unique approach to adaptation. Though an author of six novels and several other original TV and film projects, the New York-born, Austin-based creator is best known for his work in the realm of creative translation, having burst onto the scene with FX anthology series Fargo. Fargo doesn’t […]
The post Alien: Earth Study Guide – Noah Hawley Reveals His Alien TV Prequel Inspirations appeared first on Den of Geek.
Bob Odenkirk is aware that taking a punch to the face and being able to convincingly throw one in return onscreen is a little bit like doing comedy. Having gone through the learning process once for the former in 2021’s Nobody—a film for which Odenkirk spent more than a year training and preparing—the actor sees similarities between it and becoming a more seasoned late night comic. It’s all about practicing the rhythm and building confidence to deliver the punchline.
“I understood the basic rules of screen fighting, and I understood the language of it [after the first movie],” Odenkirk says when we catch up with him in Los Angeles. “I understood how the camera interacts. I learned so much on Nobody 1, and we put it to use on Nobody 2.” The star even reveals he never stopped training in the five years between filming Nobodys.
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While honing one’s craft as a late-blooming action star is a new phenomenon for Odenkirk, it’s a concept he was intimately familiar with as a comedy writer turned star. After all, he cut his teeth in the world of late night as a writer on Saturday Night Live and then refined those dentures during the first season of Late Night with Conan O’Brien. Afterward he channeled both experiences into HBO’s Mr. Show, a cult and critical favorite sketch comedy series that he co-created, produced, and starred in. Yet given the current financial realities (as well as perhaps political ones) that are taking Stephen Colbert off the air, it’s perhaps fair to wonder if that comedy-training pipeline which gave him, O’Brien, Colbert, and so many other opportunities is going away.
Perhaps. But Odenkirk seems optimistic about comedy’s prospects.
“I am not that worried,” Odenkirk says. “With the internet and with YouTube, and with all the streamers, there’s more comedy than there ever was, and there’s more platforms and opportunities than there ever was. They tend to pay less, but they pay something and there’s more of them. So that’s good. I think the biggest challenge is you could make a very good show now and almost nobody sees it because there’s just too much to sample.”
He adds, “The industry kind of does this journeying of expanding and contracting, expanding and contracting, so possibly we’re gonna contract a little bit, but I love how many platforms there are, and how much variety we can see.”
Odenkirk even thinks there is still room for a new iteration of the late night format in spite of all that variety, and all those streaming services applying pressure to the broadcast model.
Asserts Odenkirk, “Some version of late night will continue. It’s terrible what’s happened here with Colbert, but also I feel that I understand it. There are a lot of late night shows that are very similar to each other, and I can see how much is now online and a lot of my viewing is online, so I understand how it’s going through these changes. I’m okay with it. There’s gonna be lots of opportunity for us.”
With that said, Odenkirk does allow himself to be a little bit more nostalgic about his own experiences in comedy, late night and otherwise, than he has been in the past. As the creator of Chris Farley’s signature Matt Foley character, Odenkirk has admitted to a complicated relationship with SNL in the past. But when we caught up with the Nobody 2 star last week, he was quite open and maybe even a little wistful about attending the SNL 50 anniversary earlier this year.
“It was the greatest, that SNL 50 was so well done,” Odenkirk tells us. “Lorne Michaels really outdid himself, and just seeing all my old friends, Kevin Nealon and Dana Carvey and [David] Spade, and some of the writers. You know, everybody who worked on Saturday Night Live was invited to those events, so I got to see people who were in makeup and people who were in the front office and assistants. I haven’t seen those people in 35 years, you know? So it was really great.”
It was a chance to look back, even as Odenkirk is very much looking toward the future, including imagining a world how he might have many more adventures as Nobody’s Hutch Mansel.
Nobody 2 opens on Friday, Aug. 15. We’ll have more of our conversation with Odenkirk in the coming days.
The post Bob Odenkirk Thinks ‘Some Version’ of Late Night Comedy Will Survive Streaming appeared first on Den of Geek.
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The post Yes, That’s Really Alex Lawther’s Character’s Name on Alien: Earth appeared first on Den of Geek.
Bob Odenkirk is aware that taking a punch to the face and being able to convincingly throw one in return onscreen is a little bit like doing comedy. Having gone through the learning process once for the former in 2021’s Nobody—a film for which Odenkirk spent more than a year training and preparing—the actor sees similarities between it and becoming a more seasoned late night comic. It’s all about practicing the rhythm and building confidence to deliver the punchline.
“I understood the basic rules of screen fighting, and I understood the language of it [after the first movie],” Odenkirk says when we catch up with him in Los Angeles. “I understood how the camera interacts. I learned so much on Nobody 1, and we put it to use on Nobody 2.” The star even reveals he never stopped training in the five years between filming Nobodys.
cnx({
playerId: “106e33c0-3911-473c-b599-b1426db57530”,
}).render(“0270c398a82f44f49c23c16122516796”);
});
While honing one’s craft as a late-blooming action star is a new phenomenon for Odenkirk, it’s a concept he was intimately familiar with as a comedy writer turned star. After all, he cut his teeth in the world of late night as a writer on Saturday Night Live and then refined those dentures during the first season of Late Night with Conan O’Brien. Afterward he channeled both experiences into HBO’s Mr. Show, a cult and critical favorite sketch comedy series that he co-created, produced, and starred in. Yet given the current financial realities (as well as perhaps political ones) that are taking Stephen Colbert off the air, it’s perhaps fair to wonder if that comedy-training pipeline which gave him, O’Brien, Colbert, and so many other opportunities is going away.
Perhaps. But Odenkirk seems optimistic about comedy’s prospects.
“I am not that worried,” Odenkirk says. “With the internet and with YouTube, and with all the streamers, there’s more comedy than there ever was, and there’s more platforms and opportunities than there ever was. They tend to pay less, but they pay something and there’s more of them. So that’s good. I think the biggest challenge is you could make a very good show now and almost nobody sees it because there’s just too much to sample.”
He adds, “The industry kind of does this journeying of expanding and contracting, expanding and contracting, so possibly we’re gonna contract a little bit, but I love how many platforms there are, and how much variety we can see.”
Odenkirk even thinks there is still room for a new iteration of the late night format in spite of all that variety, and all those streaming services applying pressure to the broadcast model.
Asserts Odenkirk, “Some version of late night will continue. It’s terrible what’s happened here with Colbert, but also I feel that I understand it. There are a lot of late night shows that are very similar to each other, and I can see how much is now online and a lot of my viewing is online, so I understand how it’s going through these changes. I’m okay with it. There’s gonna be lots of opportunity for us.”
With that said, Odenkirk does allow himself to be a little bit more nostalgic about his own experiences in comedy, late night and otherwise, than he has been in the past. As the creator of Chris Farley’s signature Matt Foley character, Odenkirk has admitted to a complicated relationship with SNL in the past. But when we caught up with the Nobody 2 star last week, he was quite open and maybe even a little wistful about attending the SNL 50 anniversary earlier this year.
“It was the greatest, that SNL 50 was so well done,” Odenkirk tells us. “Lorne Michaels really outdid himself, and just seeing all my old friends, Kevin Nealon and Dana Carvey and [David] Spade, and some of the writers. You know, everybody who worked on Saturday Night Live was invited to those events, so I got to see people who were in makeup and people who were in the front office and assistants. I haven’t seen those people in 35 years, you know? So it was really great.”
It was a chance to look back, even as Odenkirk is very much looking toward the future, including imagining a world how he might have many more adventures as Nobody’s Hutch Mansel.
Nobody 2 opens on Friday, Aug. 15. We’ll have more of our conversation with Odenkirk in the coming days.
The post Bob Odenkirk Thinks ‘Some Version’ of Late Night Comedy Will Survive Streaming appeared first on Den of Geek.
Bob Odenkirk Thinks ‘Some Version’ of Late Night Comedy Will Survive Streaming
Bob Odenkirk is aware that taking a punch to the face and being able to convincingly throw one in return onscreen is a little bit like doing comedy. Having gone through the learning process once for the former in 2021’s Nobody—a film for which Odenkirk spent more than a year training and preparing—the actor sees […]
The post Bob Odenkirk Thinks ‘Some Version’ of Late Night Comedy Will Survive Streaming appeared first on Den of Geek.
Bob Odenkirk is aware that taking a punch to the face and being able to convincingly throw one in return onscreen is a little bit like doing comedy. Having gone through the learning process once for the former in 2021’s Nobody—a film for which Odenkirk spent more than a year training and preparing—the actor sees similarities between it and becoming a more seasoned late night comic. It’s all about practicing the rhythm and building confidence to deliver the punchline.
“I understood the basic rules of screen fighting, and I understood the language of it [after the first movie],” Odenkirk says when we catch up with him in Los Angeles. “I understood how the camera interacts. I learned so much on Nobody 1, and we put it to use on Nobody 2.” The star even reveals he never stopped training in the five years between filming Nobodys.
cnx({
playerId: “106e33c0-3911-473c-b599-b1426db57530”,
}).render(“0270c398a82f44f49c23c16122516796”);
});
While honing one’s craft as a late-blooming action star is a new phenomenon for Odenkirk, it’s a concept he was intimately familiar with as a comedy writer turned star. After all, he cut his teeth in the world of late night as a writer on Saturday Night Live and then refined those dentures during the first season of Late Night with Conan O’Brien. Afterward he channeled both experiences into HBO’s Mr. Show, a cult and critical favorite sketch comedy series that he co-created, produced, and starred in. Yet given the current financial realities (as well as perhaps political ones) that are taking Stephen Colbert off the air, it’s perhaps fair to wonder if that comedy-training pipeline which gave him, O’Brien, Colbert, and so many other opportunities is going away.
Perhaps. But Odenkirk seems optimistic about comedy’s prospects.
“I am not that worried,” Odenkirk says. “With the internet and with YouTube, and with all the streamers, there’s more comedy than there ever was, and there’s more platforms and opportunities than there ever was. They tend to pay less, but they pay something and there’s more of them. So that’s good. I think the biggest challenge is you could make a very good show now and almost nobody sees it because there’s just too much to sample.”
He adds, “The industry kind of does this journeying of expanding and contracting, expanding and contracting, so possibly we’re gonna contract a little bit, but I love how many platforms there are, and how much variety we can see.”
Odenkirk even thinks there is still room for a new iteration of the late night format in spite of all that variety, and all those streaming services applying pressure to the broadcast model.
Asserts Odenkirk, “Some version of late night will continue. It’s terrible what’s happened here with Colbert, but also I feel that I understand it. There are a lot of late night shows that are very similar to each other, and I can see how much is now online and a lot of my viewing is online, so I understand how it’s going through these changes. I’m okay with it. There’s gonna be lots of opportunity for us.”
With that said, Odenkirk does allow himself to be a little bit more nostalgic about his own experiences in comedy, late night and otherwise, than he has been in the past. As the creator of Chris Farley’s signature Matt Foley character, Odenkirk has admitted to a complicated relationship with SNL in the past. But when we caught up with the Nobody 2 star last week, he was quite open and maybe even a little wistful about attending the SNL 50 anniversary earlier this year.
“It was the greatest, that SNL 50 was so well done,” Odenkirk tells us. “Lorne Michaels really outdid himself, and just seeing all my old friends, Kevin Nealon and Dana Carvey and [David] Spade, and some of the writers. You know, everybody who worked on Saturday Night Live was invited to those events, so I got to see people who were in makeup and people who were in the front office and assistants. I haven’t seen those people in 35 years, you know? So it was really great.”
It was a chance to look back, even as Odenkirk is very much looking toward the future, including imagining a world how he might have many more adventures as Nobody’s Hutch Mansel.
Nobody 2 opens on Friday, Aug. 15. We’ll have more of our conversation with Odenkirk in the coming days.
The post Bob Odenkirk Thinks ‘Some Version’ of Late Night Comedy Will Survive Streaming appeared first on Den of Geek.
KPop Demon Hunters Does Not Feel Like a Netflix Movie (And That Makes It Great)
Late in the back half of director Maggie Kang and Chris Appelhans’ new Netflix sensation, KPop Demon Hunters, musical icon Rumi (Arden Cho) takes a break from her side hustle as a late-night monster-slayer in order to simply slay above an arena stage. Before thousands of screaming fans and a lighting scheme that matches the […]
The post KPop Demon Hunters Does Not Feel Like a Netflix Movie (And That Makes It Great) appeared first on Den of Geek.
Bob Odenkirk is aware that taking a punch to the face and being able to convincingly throw one in return onscreen is a little bit like doing comedy. Having gone through the learning process once for the former in 2021’s Nobody—a film for which Odenkirk spent more than a year training and preparing—the actor sees similarities between it and becoming a more seasoned late night comic. It’s all about practicing the rhythm and building confidence to deliver the punchline.
“I understood the basic rules of screen fighting, and I understood the language of it [after the first movie],” Odenkirk says when we catch up with him in Los Angeles. “I understood how the camera interacts. I learned so much on Nobody 1, and we put it to use on Nobody 2.” The star even reveals he never stopped training in the five years between filming Nobodys.
cnx({
playerId: “106e33c0-3911-473c-b599-b1426db57530”,
}).render(“0270c398a82f44f49c23c16122516796”);
});
While honing one’s craft as a late-blooming action star is a new phenomenon for Odenkirk, it’s a concept he was intimately familiar with as a comedy writer turned star. After all, he cut his teeth in the world of late night as a writer on Saturday Night Live and then refined those dentures during the first season of Late Night with Conan O’Brien. Afterward he channeled both experiences into HBO’s Mr. Show, a cult and critical favorite sketch comedy series that he co-created, produced, and starred in. Yet given the current financial realities (as well as perhaps political ones) that are taking Stephen Colbert off the air, it’s perhaps fair to wonder if that comedy-training pipeline which gave him, O’Brien, Colbert, and so many other opportunities is going away.
Perhaps. But Odenkirk seems optimistic about comedy’s prospects.
“I am not that worried,” Odenkirk says. “With the internet and with YouTube, and with all the streamers, there’s more comedy than there ever was, and there’s more platforms and opportunities than there ever was. They tend to pay less, but they pay something and there’s more of them. So that’s good. I think the biggest challenge is you could make a very good show now and almost nobody sees it because there’s just too much to sample.”
He adds, “The industry kind of does this journeying of expanding and contracting, expanding and contracting, so possibly we’re gonna contract a little bit, but I love how many platforms there are, and how much variety we can see.”
Odenkirk even thinks there is still room for a new iteration of the late night format in spite of all that variety, and all those streaming services applying pressure to the broadcast model.
Asserts Odenkirk, “Some version of late night will continue. It’s terrible what’s happened here with Colbert, but also I feel that I understand it. There are a lot of late night shows that are very similar to each other, and I can see how much is now online and a lot of my viewing is online, so I understand how it’s going through these changes. I’m okay with it. There’s gonna be lots of opportunity for us.”
With that said, Odenkirk does allow himself to be a little bit more nostalgic about his own experiences in comedy, late night and otherwise, than he has been in the past. As the creator of Chris Farley’s signature Matt Foley character, Odenkirk has admitted to a complicated relationship with SNL in the past. But when we caught up with the Nobody 2 star last week, he was quite open and maybe even a little wistful about attending the SNL 50 anniversary earlier this year.
“It was the greatest, that SNL 50 was so well done,” Odenkirk tells us. “Lorne Michaels really outdid himself, and just seeing all my old friends, Kevin Nealon and Dana Carvey and [David] Spade, and some of the writers. You know, everybody who worked on Saturday Night Live was invited to those events, so I got to see people who were in makeup and people who were in the front office and assistants. I haven’t seen those people in 35 years, you know? So it was really great.”
It was a chance to look back, even as Odenkirk is very much looking toward the future, including imagining a world how he might have many more adventures as Nobody’s Hutch Mansel.
Nobody 2 opens on Friday, Aug. 15. We’ll have more of our conversation with Odenkirk in the coming days.
The post Bob Odenkirk Thinks ‘Some Version’ of Late Night Comedy Will Survive Streaming appeared first on Den of Geek.
Asynchronous Design Critique: Giving Feedback
Feedback, in whichever form it takes, and whatever it may be called, is one of the most effective soft skills that we have at our disposal to collaboratively get our designs to a better place while growing our own skills and perspectives.
Feedback is also one of the most underestimated tools, and often by assuming that we’re already good at it, we settle, forgetting that it’s a skill that can be trained, grown, and improved. Poor feedback can create confusion in projects, bring down morale, and affect trust and team collaboration over the long term. Quality feedback can be a transformative force.
Practicing our skills is surely a good way to improve, but the learning gets even faster when it’s paired with a good foundation that channels and focuses the practice. What are some foundational aspects of giving good feedback? And how can feedback be adjusted for remote and distributed work environments?
On the web, we can identify a long tradition of asynchronous feedback: from the early days of open source, code was shared and discussed on mailing lists. Today, developers engage on pull requests, designers comment in their favorite design tools, project managers and scrum masters exchange ideas on tickets, and so on.
Design critique is often the name used for a type of feedback that’s provided to make our work better, collaboratively. So it shares a lot of the principles with feedback in general, but it also has some differences.
The content
The foundation of every good critique is the feedback’s content, so that’s where we need to start. There are many models that you can use to shape your content. The one that I personally like best—because it’s clear and actionable—is this one from Lara Hogan.
While this equation is generally used to give feedback to people, it also fits really well in a design critique because it ultimately answers some of the core questions that we work on: What? Where? Why? How? Imagine that you’re giving some feedback about some design work that spans multiple screens, like an onboarding flow: there are some pages shown, a flow blueprint, and an outline of the decisions made. You spot something that could be improved. If you keep the three elements of the equation in mind, you’ll have a mental model that can help you be more precise and effective.
Here is a comment that could be given as a part of some feedback, and it might look reasonable at a first glance: it seems to superficially fulfill the elements in the equation. But does it?
Not sure about the buttons’ styles and hierarchy—it feels off. Can you change them?
Observation for design feedback doesn’t just mean pointing out which part of the interface your feedback refers to, but it also refers to offering a perspective that’s as specific as possible. Are you providing the user’s perspective? Your expert perspective? A business perspective? The project manager’s perspective? A first-time user’s perspective?
When I see these two buttons, I expect one to go forward and one to go back.
Impact is about the why. Just pointing out a UI element might sometimes be enough if the issue may be obvious, but more often than not, you should add an explanation of what you’re pointing out.
When I see these two buttons, I expect one to go forward and one to go back. But this is the only screen where this happens, as before we just used a single button and an “×” to close. This seems to be breaking the consistency in the flow.
The question approach is meant to provide open guidance by eliciting the critical thinking in the designer receiving the feedback. Notably, in Lara’s equation she provides a second approach: request, which instead provides guidance toward a specific solution. While that’s a viable option for feedback in general, for design critiques, in my experience, defaulting to the question approach usually reaches the best solutions because designers are generally more comfortable in being given an open space to explore.
The difference between the two can be exemplified with, for the question approach:
When I see these two buttons, I expect one to go forward and one to go back. But this is the only screen where this happens, as before we just used a single button and an “×” to close. This seems to be breaking the consistency in the flow. Would it make sense to unify them?
Or, for the request approach:
When I see these two buttons, I expect one to go forward and one to go back. But this is the only screen where this happens, as before we just used a single button and an “×” to close. This seems to be breaking the consistency in the flow. Let’s make sure that all screens have the same pair of forward and back buttons.
At this point in some situations, it might be useful to integrate with an extra why: why you consider the given suggestion to be better.
When I see these two buttons, I expect one to go forward and one to go back. But this is the only screen where this happens, as before we just used a single button and an “×” to close. This seems to be breaking the consistency in the flow. Let’s make sure that all screens have the same two forward and back buttons so that users don’t get confused.
Choosing the question approach or the request approach can also at times be a matter of personal preference. A while ago, I was putting a lot of effort into improving my feedback: I did rounds of anonymous feedback, and I reviewed feedback with other people. After a few rounds of this work and a year later, I got a positive response: my feedback came across as effective and grounded. Until I changed teams. To my shock, my next round of feedback from one specific person wasn’t that great. The reason is that I had previously tried not to be prescriptive in my advice—because the people who I was previously working with preferred the open-ended question format over the request style of suggestions. But now in this other team, there was one person who instead preferred specific guidance. So I adapted my feedback for them to include requests.
One comment that I heard come up a few times is that this kind of feedback is quite long, and it doesn’t seem very efficient. No… but also yes. Let’s explore both sides.
No, this style of feedback is actually efficient because the length here is a byproduct of clarity, and spending time giving this kind of feedback can provide exactly enough information for a good fix. Also if we zoom out, it can reduce future back-and-forth conversations and misunderstandings, improving the overall efficiency and effectiveness of collaboration beyond the single comment. Imagine that in the example above the feedback were instead just, “Let’s make sure that all screens have the same two forward and back buttons.” The designer receiving this feedback wouldn’t have much to go by, so they might just apply the change. In later iterations, the interface might change or they might introduce new features—and maybe that change might not make sense anymore. Without the why, the designer might imagine that the change is about consistency… but what if it wasn’t? So there could now be an underlying concern that changing the buttons would be perceived as a regression.
Yes, this style of feedback is not always efficient because the points in some comments don’t always need to be exhaustive, sometimes because certain changes may be obvious (“The font used doesn’t follow our guidelines”) and sometimes because the team may have a lot of internal knowledge such that some of the whys may be implied.
So the equation above isn’t meant to suggest a strict template for feedback but a mnemonic to reflect and improve the practice. Even after years of active work on my critiques, I still from time to time go back to this formula and reflect on whether what I just wrote is effective.
The tone
Well-grounded content is the foundation of feedback, but that’s not really enough. The soft skills of the person who’s providing the critique can multiply the likelihood that the feedback will be well received and understood. Tone alone can make the difference between content that’s rejected or welcomed, and it’s been demonstrated that only positive feedback creates sustained change in people.
Since our goal is to be understood and to have a positive working environment, tone is essential to work on. Over the years, I’ve tried to summarize the required soft skills in a formula that mirrors the one for content: the receptivity equation.
Respectful feedback comes across as grounded, solid, and constructive. It’s the kind of feedback that, whether it’s positive or negative, is perceived as useful and fair.
Timing refers to when the feedback happens. To-the-point feedback doesn’t have much hope of being well received if it’s given at the wrong time. Questioning the entire high-level information architecture of a new feature when it’s about to ship might still be relevant if that questioning highlights a major blocker that nobody saw, but it’s way more likely that those concerns will have to wait for a later rework. So in general, attune your feedback to the stage of the project. Early iteration? Late iteration? Polishing work in progress? These all have different needs. The right timing will make it more likely that your feedback will be well received.
Attitude is the equivalent of intent, and in the context of person-to-person feedback, it can be referred to as radical candor. That means checking before we write to see whether what we have in mind will truly help the person and make the project better overall. This might be a hard reflection at times because maybe we don’t want to admit that we don’t really appreciate that person. Hopefully that’s not the case, but that can happen, and that’s okay. Acknowledging and owning that can help you make up for that: how would I write if I really cared about them? How can I avoid being passive aggressive? How can I be more constructive?
Form is relevant especially in a diverse and cross-cultural work environments because having great content, perfect timing, and the right attitude might not come across if the way that we write creates misunderstandings. There might be many reasons for this: sometimes certain words might trigger specific reactions; sometimes nonnative speakers might not understand all the nuances of some sentences; sometimes our brains might just be different and we might perceive the world differently—neurodiversity must be taken into consideration. Whatever the reason, it’s important to review not just what we write but how.
A few years back, I was asking for some feedback on how I give feedback. I received some good advice but also a comment that surprised me. They pointed out that when I wrote “Oh, […],” I made them feel stupid. That wasn’t my intent! I felt really bad, and I just realized that I provided feedback to them for months, and every time I might have made them feel stupid. I was horrified… but also thankful. I made a quick fix: I added “oh” in my list of replaced words (your choice between: macOS’s text replacement, aText, TextExpander, or others) so that when I typed “oh,” it was instantly deleted.
Something to highlight because it’s quite frequent—especially in teams that have a strong group spirit—is that people tend to beat around the bush. It’s important to remember here that a positive attitude doesn’t mean going light on the feedback—it just means that even when you provide hard, difficult, or challenging feedback, you do so in a way that’s respectful and constructive. The nicest thing that you can do for someone is to help them grow.
We have a great advantage in giving feedback in written form: it can be reviewed by another person who isn’t directly involved, which can help to reduce or remove any bias that might be there. I found that the best, most insightful moments for me have happened when I’ve shared a comment and I’ve asked someone who I highly trusted, “How does this sound?,” “How can I do it better,” and even “How would you have written it?”—and I’ve learned a lot by seeing the two versions side by side.
The format
Asynchronous feedback also has a major inherent advantage: we can take more time to refine what we’ve written to make sure that it fulfills two main goals: the clarity of communication and the actionability of the suggestions.
Let’s imagine that someone shared a design iteration for a project. You are reviewing it and leaving a comment. There are many ways to do this, and of course context matters, but let’s try to think about some elements that may be useful to consider.
In terms of clarity, start by grounding the critique that you’re about to give by providing context. Specifically, this means describing where you’re coming from: do you have a deep knowledge of the project, or is this the first time that you’re seeing it? Are you coming from a high-level perspective, or are you figuring out the details? Are there regressions? Which user’s perspective are you taking when providing your feedback? Is the design iteration at a point where it would be okay to ship this, or are there major things that need to be addressed first?
Providing context is helpful even if you’re sharing feedback within a team that already has some information on the project. And context is absolutely essential when giving cross-team feedback. If I were to review a design that might be indirectly related to my work, and if I had no knowledge about how the project arrived at that point, I would say so, highlighting my take as external.
We often focus on the negatives, trying to outline all the things that could be done better. That’s of course important, but it’s just as important—if not more—to focus on the positives, especially if you saw progress from the previous iteration. This might seem superfluous, but it’s important to keep in mind that design is a discipline where there are hundreds of possible solutions for every problem. So pointing out that the design solution that was chosen is good and explaining why it’s good has two major benefits: it confirms that the approach taken was solid, and it helps to ground your negative feedback. In the longer term, sharing positive feedback can help prevent regressions on things that are going well because those things will have been highlighted as important. As a bonus, positive feedback can also help reduce impostor syndrome.
There’s one powerful approach that combines both context and a focus on the positives: frame how the design is better than the status quo (compared to a previous iteration, competitors, or benchmarks) and why, and then on that foundation, you can add what could be improved. This is powerful because there’s a big difference between a critique that’s for a design that’s already in good shape and a critique that’s for a design that isn’t quite there yet.
Another way that you can improve your feedback is to depersonalize the feedback: the comments should always be about the work, never about the person who made it. It’s “This button isn’t well aligned” versus “You haven’t aligned this button well.” This is very easy to change in your writing by reviewing it just before sending.
In terms of actionability, one of the best approaches to help the designer who’s reading through your feedback is to split it into bullet points or paragraphs, which are easier to review and analyze one by one. For longer pieces of feedback, you might also consider splitting it into sections or even across multiple comments. Of course, adding screenshots or signifying markers of the specific part of the interface you’re referring to can also be especially useful.
One approach that I’ve personally used effectively in some contexts is to enhance the bullet points with four markers using emojis. So a red square 🟥 means that it’s something that I consider blocking; a yellow diamond 🔶 is something that I can be convinced otherwise, but it seems to me that it should be changed; and a green circle 🟢 is a detailed, positive confirmation. I also use a blue spiral 🌀 for either something that I’m not sure about, an exploration, an open alternative, or just a note. But I’d use this approach only on teams where I’ve already established a good level of trust because if it happens that I have to deliver a lot of red squares, the impact could be quite demoralizing, and I’d reframe how I’d communicate that a bit.
Let’s see how this would work by reusing the example that we used earlier as the first bullet point in this list:
- 🔶 Navigation—When I see these two buttons, I expect one to go forward and one to go back. But this is the only screen where this happens, as before we just used a single button and an “×” to close. This seems to be breaking the consistency in the flow. Let’s make sure that all screens have the same two forward and back buttons so that users don’t get confused.
- 🟢 Overall—I think the page is solid, and this is good enough to be our release candidate for a version 1.0.
- 🟢 Metrics—Good improvement in the buttons on the metrics area; the improved contrast and new focus style make them more accessible.
- 🟥 Button Style—Using the green accent in this context creates the impression that it’s a positive action because green is usually perceived as a confirmation color. Do we need to explore a different color?
- 🔶Tiles—Given the number of items on the page, and the overall page hierarchy, it seems to me that the tiles shouldn’t be using the Subtitle 1 style but the Subtitle 2 style. This will keep the visual hierarchy more consistent.
- 🌀 Background—Using a light texture works well, but I wonder whether it adds too much noise in this kind of page. What is the thinking in using that?
What about giving feedback directly in Figma or another design tool that allows in-place feedback? In general, I find these difficult to use because they hide discussions and they’re harder to track, but in the right context, they can be very effective. Just make sure that each of the comments is separate so that it’s easier to match each discussion to a single task, similar to the idea of splitting mentioned above.
One final note: say the obvious. Sometimes we might feel that something is obviously good or obviously wrong, and so we don’t say it. Or sometimes we might have a doubt that we don’t express because the question might sound stupid. Say it—that’s okay. You might have to reword it a little bit to make the reader feel more comfortable, but don’t hold it back. Good feedback is transparent, even when it may be obvious.
There’s another advantage of asynchronous feedback: written feedback automatically tracks decisions. Especially in large projects, “Why did we do this?” could be a question that pops up from time to time, and there’s nothing better than open, transparent discussions that can be reviewed at any time. For this reason, I recommend using software that saves these discussions, without hiding them once they are resolved.
Content, tone, and format. Each one of these subjects provides a useful model, but working to improve eight areas—observation, impact, question, timing, attitude, form, clarity, and actionability—is a lot of work to put in all at once. One effective approach is to take them one by one: first identify the area that you lack the most (either from your perspective or from feedback from others) and start there. Then the second, then the third, and so on. At first you’ll have to put in extra time for every piece of feedback that you give, but after a while, it’ll become second nature, and your impact on the work will multiply.
Thanks to Brie Anne Demkiw and Mike Shelton for reviewing the first draft of this article.
Asynchronous Design Critique: Getting Feedback
“Any comment?” is probably one of the worst ways to ask for feedback. It’s vague and open ended, and it doesn’t provide any indication of what we’re looking for. Getting good feedback starts earlier than we might expect: it starts with the request.
It might seem counterintuitive to start the process of receiving feedback with a question, but that makes sense if we realize that getting feedback can be thought of as a form of design research. In the same way that we wouldn’t do any research without the right questions to get the insights that we need, the best way to ask for feedback is also to craft sharp questions.
Design critique is not a one-shot process. Sure, any good feedback workflow continues until the project is finished, but this is particularly true for design because design work continues iteration after iteration, from a high level to the finest details. Each level needs its own set of questions.
And finally, as with any good research, we need to review what we got back, get to the core of its insights, and take action. Question, iteration, and review. Let’s look at each of those.
The question
Being open to feedback is essential, but we need to be precise about what we’re looking for. Just saying “Any comment?”, “What do you think?”, or “I’d love to get your opinion” at the end of a presentation—whether it’s in person, over video, or through a written post—is likely to get a number of varied opinions or, even worse, get everyone to follow the direction of the first person who speaks up. And then… we get frustrated because vague questions like those can turn a high-level flows review into people instead commenting on the borders of buttons. Which might be a hearty topic, so it might be hard at that point to redirect the team to the subject that you had wanted to focus on.
But how do we get into this situation? It’s a mix of factors. One is that we don’t usually consider asking as a part of the feedback process. Another is how natural it is to just leave the question implied, expecting the others to be on the same page. Another is that in nonprofessional discussions, there’s often no need to be that precise. In short, we tend to underestimate the importance of the questions, so we don’t work on improving them.
The act of asking good questions guides and focuses the critique. It’s also a form of consent: it makes it clear that you’re open to comments and what kind of comments you’d like to get. It puts people in the right mental state, especially in situations when they weren’t expecting to give feedback.
There isn’t a single best way to ask for feedback. It just needs to be specific, and specificity can take many shapes. A model for design critique that I’ve found particularly useful in my coaching is the one of stage versus depth.
“Stage” refers to each of the steps of the process—in our case, the design process. In progressing from user research to the final design, the kind of feedback evolves. But within a single step, one might still review whether some assumptions are correct and whether there’s been a proper translation of the amassed feedback into updated designs as the project has evolved. A starting point for potential questions could derive from the layers of user experience. What do you want to know: Project objectives? User needs? Functionality? Content? Interaction design? Information architecture? UI design? Navigation design? Visual design? Branding?
Here’re a few example questions that are precise and to the point that refer to different layers:
- Functionality: Is automating account creation desirable?
- Interaction design: Take a look through the updated flow and let me know whether you see any steps or error states that I might’ve missed.
- Information architecture: We have two competing bits of information on this page. Is the structure effective in communicating them both?
- UI design: What are your thoughts on the error counter at the top of the page that makes sure that you see the next error, even if the error is out of the viewport?
- Navigation design: From research, we identified these second-level navigation items, but once you’re on the page, the list feels too long and hard to navigate. Are there any suggestions to address this?
- Visual design: Are the sticky notifications in the bottom-right corner visible enough?
The other axis of specificity is about how deep you’d like to go on what’s being presented. For example, we might have introduced a new end-to-end flow, but there was a specific view that you found particularly challenging and you’d like a detailed review of that. This can be especially useful from one iteration to the next where it’s important to highlight the parts that have changed.
There are other things that we can consider when we want to achieve more specific—and more effective—questions.
A simple trick is to remove generic qualifiers from your questions like “good,” “well,” “nice,” “bad,” “okay,” and “cool.” For example, asking, “When the block opens and the buttons appear, is this interaction good?” might look specific, but you can spot the “good” qualifier, and convert it to an even better question: “When the block opens and the buttons appear, is it clear what the next action is?”
Sometimes we actually do want broad feedback. That’s rare, but it can happen. In that sense, you might still make it explicit that you’re looking for a wide range of opinions, whether at a high level or with details. Or maybe just say, “At first glance, what do you think?” so that it’s clear that what you’re asking is open ended but focused on someone’s impression after their first five seconds of looking at it.
Sometimes the project is particularly expansive, and some areas may have already been explored in detail. In these situations, it might be useful to explicitly say that some parts are already locked in and aren’t open to feedback. It’s not something that I’d recommend in general, but I’ve found it useful to avoid falling again into rabbit holes of the sort that might lead to further refinement but aren’t what’s most important right now.
Asking specific questions can completely change the quality of the feedback that you receive. People with less refined critique skills will now be able to offer more actionable feedback, and even expert designers will welcome the clarity and efficiency that comes from focusing only on what’s needed. It can save a lot of time and frustration.
The iteration
Design iterations are probably the most visible part of the design work, and they provide a natural checkpoint for feedback. Yet a lot of design tools with inline commenting tend to show changes as a single fluid stream in the same file, and those types of design tools make conversations disappear once they’re resolved, update shared UI components automatically, and compel designs to always show the latest version—unless these would-be helpful features were to be manually turned off. The implied goal that these design tools seem to have is to arrive at just one final copy with all discussions closed, probably because they inherited patterns from how written documents are collaboratively edited. That’s probably not the best way to approach design critiques, but even if I don’t want to be too prescriptive here: that could work for some teams.
The asynchronous design-critique approach that I find most effective is to create explicit checkpoints for discussion. I’m going to use the term iteration post for this. It refers to a write-up or presentation of the design iteration followed by a discussion thread of some kind. Any platform that can accommodate this structure can use this. By the way, when I refer to a “write-up or presentation,” I’m including video recordings or other media too: as long as it’s asynchronous, it works.
Using iteration posts has many advantages:
- It creates a rhythm in the design work so that the designer can review feedback from each iteration and prepare for the next.
- It makes decisions visible for future review, and conversations are likewise always available.
- It creates a record of how the design changed over time.
- Depending on the tool, it might also make it easier to collect feedback and act on it.
These posts of course don’t mean that no other feedback approach should be used, just that iteration posts could be the primary rhythm for a remote design team to use. And other feedback approaches (such as live critique, pair designing, or inline comments) can build from there.
I don’t think there’s a standard format for iteration posts. But there are a few high-level elements that make sense to include as a baseline:
- The goal
- The design
- The list of changes
- The questions
Each project is likely to have a goal, and hopefully it’s something that’s already been summarized in a single sentence somewhere else, such as the client brief, the product manager’s outline, or the project owner’s request. So this is something that I’d repeat in every iteration post—literally copy and pasting it. The idea is to provide context and to repeat what’s essential to make each iteration post complete so that there’s no need to find information spread across multiple posts. If I want to know about the latest design, the latest iteration post will have all that I need.
This copy-and-paste part introduces another relevant concept: alignment comes from repetition. So having posts that repeat information is actually very effective toward making sure that everyone is on the same page.
The design is then the actual series of information-architecture outlines, diagrams, flows, maps, wireframes, screens, visuals, and any other kind of design work that’s been done. In short, it’s any design artifact. For the final stages of work, I prefer the term blueprint to emphasize that I’ll be showing full flows instead of individual screens to make it easier to understand the bigger picture.
It can also be useful to label the artifacts with clear titles because that can make it easier to refer to them. Write the post in a way that helps people understand the work. It’s not too different from organizing a good live presentation.
For an efficient discussion, you should also include a bullet list of the changes from the previous iteration to let people focus on what’s new, which can be especially useful for larger pieces of work where keeping track, iteration after iteration, could become a challenge.
And finally, as noted earlier, it’s essential that you include a list of the questions to drive the design critique in the direction you want. Doing this as a numbered list can also help make it easier to refer to each question by its number.
Not all iterations are the same. Earlier iterations don’t need to be as tightly focused—they can be more exploratory and experimental, maybe even breaking some of the design-language guidelines to see what’s possible. Then later, the iterations start settling on a solution and refining it until the design process reaches its end and the feature ships.
I want to highlight that even if these iteration posts are written and conceived as checkpoints, by no means do they need to be exhaustive. A post might be a draft—just a concept to get a conversation going—or it could be a cumulative list of each feature that was added over the course of each iteration until the full picture is done.
Over time, I also started using specific labels for incremental iterations: i1, i2, i3, and so on. This might look like a minor labelling tip, but it can help in multiple ways:
- Unique—It’s a clear unique marker. Within each project, one can easily say, “This was discussed in i4,” and everyone knows where they can go to review things.
- Unassuming—It works like versions (such as v1, v2, and v3) but in contrast, versions create the impression of something that’s big, exhaustive, and complete. Iterations must be able to be exploratory, incomplete, partial.
- Future proof—It resolves the “final” naming problem that you can run into with versions. No more files named “final final complete no-really-its-done.” Within each project, the largest number always represents the latest iteration.
To mark when a design is complete enough to be worked on, even if there might be some bits still in need of attention and in turn more iterations needed, the wording release candidate (RC) could be used to describe it: “with i8, we reached RC” or “i12 is an RC.”
The review
What usually happens during a design critique is an open discussion, with a back and forth between people that can be very productive. This approach is particularly effective during live, synchronous feedback. But when we work asynchronously, it’s more effective to use a different approach: we can shift to a user-research mindset. Written feedback from teammates, stakeholders, or others can be treated as if it were the result of user interviews and surveys, and we can analyze it accordingly.
This shift has some major benefits that make asynchronous feedback particularly effective, especially around these friction points:
- It removes the pressure to reply to everyone.
- It reduces the frustration from swoop-by comments.
- It lessens our personal stake.
The first friction point is feeling a pressure to reply to every single comment. Sometimes we write the iteration post, and we get replies from our team. It’s just a few of them, it’s easy, and it doesn’t feel like a problem. But other times, some solutions might require more in-depth discussions, and the amount of replies can quickly increase, which can create a tension between trying to be a good team player by replying to everyone and doing the next design iteration. This might be especially true if the person who’s replying is a stakeholder or someone directly involved in the project who we feel that we need to listen to. We need to accept that this pressure is absolutely normal, and it’s human nature to try to accommodate people who we care about. Sometimes replying to all comments can be effective, but if we treat a design critique more like user research, we realize that we don’t have to reply to every comment, and in asynchronous spaces, there are alternatives:
- One is to let the next iteration speak for itself. When the design evolves and we post a follow-up iteration, that’s the reply. You might tag all the people who were involved in the previous discussion, but even that’s a choice, not a requirement.
- Another is to briefly reply to acknowledge each comment, such as “Understood. Thank you,” “Good points—I’ll review,” or “Thanks. I’ll include these in the next iteration.” In some cases, this could also be just a single top-level comment along the lines of “Thanks for all the feedback everyone—the next iteration is coming soon!”
- Another is to provide a quick summary of the comments before moving on. Depending on your workflow, this can be particularly useful as it can provide a simplified checklist that you can then use for the next iteration.
The second friction point is the swoop-by comment, which is the kind of feedback that comes from someone outside the project or team who might not be aware of the context, restrictions, decisions, or requirements—or of the previous iterations’ discussions. On their side, there’s something that one can hope that they might learn: they could start to acknowledge that they’re doing this and they could be more conscious in outlining where they’re coming from. Swoop-by comments often trigger the simple thought “We’ve already discussed this…”, and it can be frustrating to have to repeat the same reply over and over.
Let’s begin by acknowledging again that there’s no need to reply to every comment. If, however, replying to a previously litigated point might be useful, a short reply with a link to the previous discussion for extra details is usually enough. Remember, alignment comes from repetition, so it’s okay to repeat things sometimes!
Swoop-by commenting can still be useful for two reasons: they might point out something that still isn’t clear, and they also have the potential to stand in for the point of view of a user who’s seeing the design for the first time. Sure, you’ll still be frustrated, but that might at least help in dealing with it.
The third friction point is the personal stake we could have with the design, which could make us feel defensive if the review were to feel more like a discussion. Treating feedback as user research helps us create a healthy distance between the people giving us feedback and our ego (because yes, even if we don’t want to admit it, it’s there). And ultimately, treating everything in aggregated form allows us to better prioritize our work.
Always remember that while you need to listen to stakeholders, project owners, and specific advice, you don’t have to accept every piece of feedback. You have to analyze it and make a decision that you can justify, but sometimes “no” is the right answer.
As the designer leading the project, you’re in charge of that decision. Ultimately, everyone has their specialty, and as the designer, you’re the one who has the most knowledge and the most context to make the right decision. And by listening to the feedback that you’ve received, you’re making sure that it’s also the best and most balanced decision.
Thanks to Brie Anne Demkiw and Mike Shelton for reviewing the first draft of this article.







