The Wax and the Wane of the Web
I offer a single bit of advice to friends and family when they become new parents: When you start to think that you’ve got everything figured out, everything will change. Just as you start to get the hang of feedings, diapers, and regular naps, it’s time for solid food, potty training, and overnight sleeping. When you figure those out, it’s time for preschool and rare naps. The cycle goes on and on.
The same applies for those of us working in design and development these days. Having worked on the web for almost three decades at this point, I’ve seen the regular wax and wane of ideas, techniques, and technologies. Each time that we as developers and designers get into a regular rhythm, some new idea or technology comes along to shake things up and remake our world.
How we got here
I built my first website in the mid-’90s. Design and development on the web back then was a free-for-all, with few established norms. For any layout aside from a single column, we used table elements, often with empty cells containing a single pixel spacer GIF to add empty space. We styled text with numerous font tags, nesting the tags every time we wanted to vary the font style. And we had only three or four typefaces to choose from: Arial, Courier, or Times New Roman. When Verdana and Georgia came out in 1996, we rejoiced because our options had nearly doubled. The only safe colors to choose from were the 216 “web safe” colors known to work across platforms. The few interactive elements (like contact forms, guest books, and counters) were mostly powered by CGI scripts (predominantly written in Perl at the time). Achieving any kind of unique look involved a pile of hacks all the way down. Interaction was often limited to specific pages in a site.
The birth of web standards
At the turn of the century, a new cycle started. Crufty code littered with table layouts and font tags waned, and a push for web standards waxed. Newer technologies like CSS got more widespread adoption by browsers makers, developers, and designers. This shift toward standards didn’t happen accidentally or overnight. It took active engagement between the W3C and browser vendors and heavy evangelism from folks like the Web Standards Project to build standards. A List Apart and books like Designing with Web Standards by Jeffrey Zeldman played key roles in teaching developers and designers why standards are important, how to implement them, and how to sell them to their organizations. And approaches like progressive enhancement introduced the idea that content should be available for all browsers—with additional enhancements available for more advanced browsers. Meanwhile, sites like the CSS Zen Garden showcased just how powerful and versatile CSS can be when combined with a solid semantic HTML structure.
Server-side languages like PHP, Java, and .NET overtook Perl as the predominant back-end processors, and the cgi-bin was tossed in the trash bin. With these better server-side tools came the first era of web applications, starting with content-management systems (particularly in the blogging space with tools like Blogger, Grey Matter, Movable Type, and WordPress). In the mid-2000s, AJAX opened doors for asynchronous interaction between the front end and back end. Suddenly, pages could update their content without needing to reload. A crop of JavaScript frameworks like Prototype, YUI, and jQuery arose to help developers build more reliable client-side interaction across browsers that had wildly varying levels of standards support. Techniques like image replacement let crafty designers and developers display fonts of their choosing. And technologies like Flash made it possible to add animations, games, and even more interactivity.
These new technologies, standards, and techniques reinvigorated the industry in many ways. Web design flourished as designers and developers explored more diverse styles and layouts. But we still relied on tons of hacks. Early CSS was a huge improvement over table-based layouts when it came to basic layout and text styling, but its limitations at the time meant that designers and developers still relied heavily on images for complex shapes (such as rounded or angled corners) and tiled backgrounds for the appearance of full-length columns (among other hacks). Complicated layouts required all manner of nested floats or absolute positioning (or both). Flash and image replacement for custom fonts was a great start toward varying the typefaces from the big five, but both hacks introduced accessibility and performance problems. And JavaScript libraries made it easy for anyone to add a dash of interaction to pages, although at the cost of doubling or even quadrupling the download size of simple websites.
The web as software platform
The symbiosis between the front end and back end continued to improve, and that led to the current era of modern web applications. Between expanded server-side programming languages (which kept growing to include Ruby, Python, Go, and others) and newer front-end tools like React, Vue, and Angular, we could build fully capable software on the web. Alongside these tools came others, including collaborative version control, build automation, and shared package libraries. What was once primarily an environment for linked documents became a realm of infinite possibilities.
At the same time, mobile devices became more capable, and they gave us internet access in our pockets. Mobile apps and responsive design opened up opportunities for new interactions anywhere and any time.
This combination of capable mobile devices and powerful development tools contributed to the waxing of social media and other centralized tools for people to connect and consume. As it became easier and more common to connect with others directly on Twitter, Facebook, and even Slack, the desire for hosted personal sites waned. Social media offered connections on a global scale, with both the good and bad that that entails.
Want a much more extensive history of how we got here, with some other takes on ways that we can improve? Jeremy Keith wrote “Of Time and the Web.” Or check out the “Web Design History Timeline” at the Web Design Museum. Neal Agarwal also has a fun tour through “Internet Artifacts.”
Where we are now
In the last couple of years, it’s felt like we’ve begun to reach another major inflection point. As social-media platforms fracture and wane, there’s been a growing interest in owning our own content again. There are many different ways to make a website, from the tried-and-true classic of hosting plain HTML files to static site generators to content management systems of all flavors. The fracturing of social media also comes with a cost: we lose crucial infrastructure for discovery and connection. Webmentions, RSS, ActivityPub, and other tools of the IndieWeb can help with this, but they’re still relatively underimplemented and hard to use for the less nerdy. We can build amazing personal websites and add to them regularly, but without discovery and connection, it can sometimes feel like we may as well be shouting into the void.
Browser support for CSS, JavaScript, and other standards like web components has accelerated, especially through efforts like Interop. New technologies gain support across the board in a fraction of the time that they used to. I often learn about a new feature and check its browser support only to find that its coverage is already above 80 percent. Nowadays, the barrier to using newer techniques often isn’t browser support but simply the limits of how quickly designers and developers can learn what’s available and how to adopt it.
Today, with a few commands and a couple of lines of code, we can prototype almost any idea. All the tools that we now have available make it easier than ever to start something new. But the upfront cost that these frameworks may save in initial delivery eventually comes due as upgrading and maintaining them becomes a part of our technical debt.
If we rely on third-party frameworks, adopting new standards can sometimes take longer since we may have to wait for those frameworks to adopt those standards. These frameworks—which used to let us adopt new techniques sooner—have now become hindrances instead. These same frameworks often come with performance costs too, forcing users to wait for scripts to load before they can read or interact with pages. And when scripts fail (whether through poor code, network issues, or other environmental factors), there’s often no alternative, leaving users with blank or broken pages.
Where do we go from here?
Today’s hacks help to shape tomorrow’s standards. And there’s nothing inherently wrong with embracing hacks—for now—to move the present forward. Problems only arise when we’re unwilling to admit that they’re hacks or we hesitate to replace them. So what can we do to create the future we want for the web?
Build for the long haul. Optimize for performance, for accessibility, and for the user. Weigh the costs of those developer-friendly tools. They may make your job a little easier today, but how do they affect everything else? What’s the cost to users? To future developers? To standards adoption? Sometimes the convenience may be worth it. Sometimes it’s just a hack that you’ve grown accustomed to. And sometimes it’s holding you back from even better options.
Start from standards. Standards continue to evolve over time, but browsers have done a remarkably good job of continuing to support older standards. The same isn’t always true of third-party frameworks. Sites built with even the hackiest of HTML from the ’90s still work just fine today. The same can’t always be said of sites built with frameworks even after just a couple years.
Design with care. Whether your craft is code, pixels, or processes, consider the impacts of each decision. The convenience of many a modern tool comes at the cost of not always understanding the underlying decisions that have led to its design and not always considering the impact that those decisions can have. Rather than rushing headlong to “move fast and break things,” use the time saved by modern tools to consider more carefully and design with deliberation.
Always be learning. If you’re always learning, you’re also growing. Sometimes it may be hard to pinpoint what’s worth learning and what’s just today’s hack. You might end up focusing on something that won’t matter next year, even if you were to focus solely on learning standards. (Remember XHTML?) But constant learning opens up new connections in your brain, and the hacks that you learn one day may help to inform different experiments another day.
Play, experiment, and be weird! This web that we’ve built is the ultimate experiment. It’s the single largest human endeavor in history, and yet each of us can create our own pocket within it. Be courageous and try new things. Build a playground for ideas. Make goofy experiments in your own mad science lab. Start your own small business. There has never been a more empowering place to be creative, take risks, and explore what we’re capable of.
Share and amplify. As you experiment, play, and learn, share what’s worked for you. Write on your own website, post on whichever social media site you prefer, or shout it from a TikTok. Write something for A List Apart! But take the time to amplify others too: find new voices, learn from them, and share what they’ve taught you.
Go forth and make
As designers and developers for the web (and beyond), we’re responsible for building the future every day, whether that may take the shape of personal websites, social media tools used by billions, or anything in between. Let’s imbue our values into the things that we create, and let’s make the web a better place for everyone. Create that thing that only you are uniquely qualified to make. Then share it, make it better, make it again, or make something new. Learn. Make. Share. Grow. Rinse and repeat. Every time you think that you’ve mastered the web, everything will change.
To Ignite a Personalization Practice, Run this Prepersonalization Workshop
Picture this. You’ve joined a squad at your company that’s designing new product features with an emphasis on automation or AI. Or your company has just implemented a personalization engine. Either way, you’re designing with data. Now what? When it comes to designing for personalization, there are many cautionary tales, no overnight successes, and few guides for the perplexed.
Between the fantasy of getting it right and the fear of it going wrong—like when we encounter “persofails” in the vein of a company repeatedly imploring everyday consumers to buy additional toilet seats—the personalization gap is real. It’s an especially confounding place to be a digital professional without a map, a compass, or a plan.
For those of you venturing into personalization, there’s no Lonely Planet and few tour guides because effective personalization is so specific to each organization’s talent, technology, and market position.
But you can ensure that your team has packed its bags sensibly.
There’s a DIY formula to increase your chances for success. At minimum, you’ll defuse your boss’s irrational exuberance. Before the party you’ll need to effectively prepare.
We call it prepersonalization.
Behind the music
Consider Spotify’s DJ feature, which debuted this past year.
We’re used to seeing the polished final result of a personalization feature. Before the year-end award, the making-of backstory, or the behind-the-scenes victory lap, a personalized feature had to be conceived, budgeted, and prioritized. Before any personalization feature goes live in your product or service, it lives amid a backlog of worthy ideas for expressing customer experiences more dynamically.
So how do you know where to place your personalization bets? How do you design consistent interactions that won’t trip up users or—worse—breed mistrust? We’ve found that for many budgeted programs to justify their ongoing investments, they first needed one or more workshops to convene key stakeholders and internal customers of the technology. Make yours count.
From Big Tech to fledgling startups, we’ve seen the same evolution up close with our clients. In our experiences with working on small and large personalization efforts, a program’s ultimate track record—and its ability to weather tough questions, work steadily toward shared answers, and organize its design and technology efforts—turns on how effectively these prepersonalization activities play out.
Time and again, we’ve seen effective workshops separate future success stories from unsuccessful efforts, saving countless time, resources, and collective well-being in the process.
A personalization practice involves a multiyear effort of testing and feature development. It’s not a switch-flip moment in your tech stack. It’s best managed as a backlog that often evolves through three steps:
- customer experience optimization (CXO, also known as A/B testing or experimentation)
- always-on automations (whether rules-based or machine-generated)
- mature features or standalone product development (such as Spotify’s DJ experience)
This is why we created our progressive personalization framework and why we’re field-testing an accompanying deck of cards: we believe that there’s a base grammar, a set of “nouns and verbs” that your organization can use to design experiences that are customized, personalized, or automated. You won’t need these cards. But we strongly recommend that you create something similar, whether that might be digital or physical.
Set your kitchen timer
How long does it take to cook up a prepersonalization workshop? The surrounding assessment activities that we recommend including can (and often do) span weeks. For the core workshop, we recommend aiming for two to three days. Here’s a summary of our broader approach along with details on the essential first-day activities.
The full arc of the wider workshop is threefold:
- Kickstart: This sets the terms of engagement as you focus on the opportunity as well as the readiness and drive of your team and your leadership. .
- Plan your work: This is the heart of the card-based workshop activities where you specify a plan of attack and the scope of work.
- Work your plan: This phase is all about creating a competitive environment for team participants to individually pitch their own pilots that each contain a proof-of-concept project, its business case, and its operating model.
Give yourself at least a day, split into two large time blocks, to power through a concentrated version of those first two phases.
Kickstart: Whet your appetite
We call the first lesson the “landscape of connected experience.” It explores the personalization possibilities in your organization. A connected experience, in our parlance, is any UX requiring the orchestration of multiple systems of record on the backend. This could be a content-management system combined with a marketing-automation platform. It could be a digital-asset manager combined with a customer-data platform.
Spark conversation by naming consumer examples and business-to-business examples of connected experience interactions that you admire, find familiar, or even dislike. This should cover a representative range of personalization patterns, including automated app-based interactions (such as onboarding sequences or wizards), notifications, and recommenders. We have a catalog of these in the cards. Here’s a list of 142 different interactions to jog your thinking.
This is all about setting the table. What are the possible paths for the practice in your organization? If you want a broader view, here’s a long-form primer and a strategic framework.
Assess each example that you discuss for its complexity and the level of effort that you estimate that it would take for your team to deliver that feature (or something similar). In our cards, we divide connected experiences into five levels: functions, features, experiences, complete products, and portfolios. Size your own build here. This will help to focus the conversation on the merits of ongoing investment as well as the gap between what you deliver today and what you want to deliver in the future.
Next, have your team plot each idea on the following 2×2 grid, which lays out the four enduring arguments for a personalized experience. This is critical because it emphasizes how personalization can not only help your external customers but also affect your own ways of working. It’s also a reminder (which is why we used the word argument earlier) of the broader effort beyond these tactical interventions.
Each team member should vote on where they see your product or service putting its emphasis. Naturally, you can’t prioritize all of them. The intention here is to flesh out how different departments may view their own upsides to the effort, which can vary from one to the next. Documenting your desired outcomes lets you know how the team internally aligns across representatives from different departments or functional areas.
The third and final kickstart activity is about naming your personalization gap. Is your customer journey well documented? Will data and privacy compliance be too big of a challenge? Do you have content metadata needs that you have to address? (We’re pretty sure that you do: it’s just a matter of recognizing the relative size of that need and its remedy.) In our cards, we’ve noted a number of program risks, including common team dispositions. Our Detractor card, for example, lists six stakeholder behaviors that hinder progress.
Effectively collaborating and managing expectations is critical to your success. Consider the potential barriers to your future progress. Press the participants to name specific steps to overcome or mitigate those barriers in your organization. As studies have shown, personalization efforts face many common barriers.
At this point, you’ve hopefully discussed sample interactions, emphasized a key area of benefit, and flagged key gaps? Good—you’re ready to continue.
Hit that test kitchen
Next, let’s look at what you’ll need to bring your personalization recipes to life. Personalization engines, which are robust software suites for automating and expressing dynamic content, can intimidate new customers. Their capabilities are sweeping and powerful, and they present broad options for how your organization can conduct its activities. This presents the question: Where do you begin when you’re configuring a connected experience?
What’s important here is to avoid treating the installed software like it were a dream kitchen from some fantasy remodeling project (as one of our client executives memorably put it). These software engines are more like test kitchens where your team can begin devising, tasting, and refining the snacks and meals that will become a part of your personalization program’s regularly evolving menu.
The ultimate menu of the prioritized backlog will come together over the course of the workshop. And creating “dishes” is the way that you’ll have individual team stakeholders construct personalized interactions that serve their needs or the needs of others.
The dishes will come from recipes, and those recipes have set ingredients.
Verify your ingredients
Like a good product manager, you’ll make sure—andyou’ll validate with the right stakeholders present—that you have all the ingredients on hand to cook up your desired interaction (or that you can work out what needs to be added to your pantry). These ingredients include the audience that you’re targeting, content and design elements, the context for the interaction, and your measure for how it’ll come together.
This isn’t just about discovering requirements. Documenting your personalizations as a series of if-then statements lets the team:
- compare findings toward a unified approach for developing features, not unlike when artists paint with the same palette;
- specify a consistent set of interactions that users find uniform or familiar;
- and develop parity across performance measurements and key performance indicators too.
This helps you streamline your designs and your technical efforts while you deliver a shared palette of core motifs of your personalized or automated experience.
Compose your recipe
What ingredients are important to you? Think of a who-what-when-why construct:
- Who are your key audience segments or groups?
- What kind of content will you give them, in what design elements, and under what circumstances?
- And for which business and user benefits?
We first developed these cards and card categories five years ago. We regularly play-test their fit with conference audiences and clients. And we still encounter new possibilities. But they all follow an underlying who-what-when-why logic.
Here are three examples for a subscription-based reading app, which you can generally follow along with right to left in the cards in the accompanying photo below.
- Nurture personalization: When a guest or an unknown visitor interacts with a product title, a banner or alert bar appears that makes it easier for them to encounter a related title they may want to read, saving them time.
- Welcome automation: When there’s a newly registered user, an email is generated to call out the breadth of the content catalog and to make them a happier subscriber.
- Winback automation: Before their subscription lapses or after a recent failed renewal, a user is sent an email that gives them a promotional offer to suggest that they reconsider renewing or to remind them to renew.
A useful preworkshop activity may be to think through a first draft of what these cards might be for your organization, although we’ve also found that this process sometimes flows best through cocreating the recipes themselves. Start with a set of blank cards, and begin labeling and grouping them through the design process, eventually distilling them to a refined subset of highly useful candidate cards.
You can think of the later stages of the workshop as moving from recipes toward a cookbook in focus—like a more nuanced customer-journey mapping. Individual “cooks” will pitch their recipes to the team, using a common jobs-to-be-done format so that measurability and results are baked in, and from there, the resulting collection will be prioritized for finished design and delivery to production.
Better kitchens require better architecture
Simplifying a customer experience is a complicated effort for those who are inside delivering it. Beware anyone who says otherwise. With that being said, “Complicated problems can be hard to solve, but they are addressable with rules and recipes.”
When personalization becomes a laugh line, it’s because a team is overfitting: they aren’t designing with their best data. Like a sparse pantry, every organization has metadata debt to go along with its technical debt, and this creates a drag on personalization effectiveness. Your AI’s output quality, for example, is indeed limited by your IA. Spotify’s poster-child prowess today was unfathomable before they acquired a seemingly modest metadata startup that now powers its underlying information architecture.
You can definitely stand the heat…
Personalization technology opens a doorway into a confounding ocean of possible designs. Only a disciplined and highly collaborative approach will bring about the necessary focus and intention to succeed. So banish the dream kitchen. Instead, hit the test kitchen to save time, preserve job satisfaction and security, and safely dispense with the fanciful ideas that originate upstairs of the doers in your organization. There are meals to serve and mouths to feed.
This workshop framework gives you a fighting shot at lasting success as well as sound beginnings. Wiring up your information layer isn’t an overnight affair. But if you use the same cookbook and shared recipes, you’ll have solid footing for success. We designed these activities to make your organization’s needs concrete and clear, long before the hazards pile up.
While there are associated costs toward investing in this kind of technology and product design, your ability to size up and confront your unique situation and your digital capabilities is time well spent. Don’t squander it. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.
User Research Is Storytelling
Ever since I was a boy, I’ve been fascinated with movies. I loved the characters and the excitement—but most of all the stories. I wanted to be an actor. And I believed that I’d get to do the things that Indiana Jones did and go on exciting adventures. I even dreamed up ideas for movies that my friends and I could make and star in. But they never went any further. I did, however, end up working in user experience (UX). Now, I realize that there’s an element of theater to UX—I hadn’t really considered it before, but user research is storytelling. And to get the most out of user research, you need to tell a good story where you bring stakeholders—the product team and decision makers—along and get them interested in learning more.
Think of your favorite movie. More than likely it follows a three-act structure that’s commonly seen in storytelling: the setup, the conflict, and the resolution. The first act shows what exists today, and it helps you get to know the characters and the challenges and problems that they face. Act two introduces the conflict, where the action is. Here, problems grow or get worse. And the third and final act is the resolution. This is where the issues are resolved and the characters learn and change. I believe that this structure is also a great way to think about user research, and I think that it can be especially helpful in explaining user research to others.
Use storytelling as a structure to do research
It’s sad to say, but many have come to see research as being expendable. If budgets or timelines are tight, research tends to be one of the first things to go. Instead of investing in research, some product managers rely on designers or—worse—their own opinion to make the “right” choices for users based on their experience or accepted best practices. That may get teams some of the way, but that approach can so easily miss out on solving users’ real problems. To remain user-centered, this is something we should avoid. User research elevates design. It keeps it on track, pointing to problems and opportunities. Being aware of the issues with your product and reacting to them can help you stay ahead of your competitors.
In the three-act structure, each act corresponds to a part of the process, and each part is critical to telling the whole story. Let’s look at the different acts and how they align with user research.
Act one: setup
The setup is all about understanding the background, and that’s where foundational research comes in. Foundational research (also called generative, discovery, or initial research) helps you understand users and identify their problems. You’re learning about what exists today, the challenges users have, and how the challenges affect them—just like in the movies. To do foundational research, you can conduct contextual inquiries or diary studies (or both!), which can help you start to identify problems as well as opportunities. It doesn’t need to be a huge investment in time or money.
Erika Hall writes about minimum viable ethnography, which can be as simple as spending 15 minutes with a user and asking them one thing: “‘Walk me through your day yesterday.’ That’s it. Present that one request. Shut up and listen to them for 15 minutes. Do your damndest to keep yourself and your interests out of it. Bam, you’re doing ethnography.” According to Hall, “[This] will probably prove quite illuminating. In the highly unlikely case that you didn’t learn anything new or useful, carry on with enhanced confidence in your direction.”
This makes total sense to me. And I love that this makes user research so accessible. You don’t need to prepare a lot of documentation; you can just recruit participants and do it! This can yield a wealth of information about your users, and it’ll help you better understand them and what’s going on in their lives. That’s really what act one is all about: understanding where users are coming from.
Jared Spool talks about the importance of foundational research and how it should form the bulk of your research. If you can draw from any additional user data that you can get your hands on, such as surveys or analytics, that can supplement what you’ve heard in the foundational studies or even point to areas that need further investigation. Together, all this data paints a clearer picture of the state of things and all its shortcomings. And that’s the beginning of a compelling story. It’s the point in the plot where you realize that the main characters—or the users in this case—are facing challenges that they need to overcome. Like in the movies, this is where you start to build empathy for the characters and root for them to succeed. And hopefully stakeholders are now doing the same. Their sympathy may be with their business, which could be losing money because users can’t complete certain tasks. Or maybe they do empathize with users’ struggles. Either way, act one is your initial hook to get the stakeholders interested and invested.
Once stakeholders begin to understand the value of foundational research, that can open doors to more opportunities that involve users in the decision-making process. And that can guide product teams toward being more user-centered. This benefits everyone—users, the product, and stakeholders. It’s like winning an Oscar in movie terms—it often leads to your product being well received and successful. And this can be an incentive for stakeholders to repeat this process with other products. Storytelling is the key to this process, and knowing how to tell a good story is the only way to get stakeholders to really care about doing more research.
This brings us to act two, where you iteratively evaluate a design or concept to see whether it addresses the issues.
Act two: conflict
Act two is all about digging deeper into the problems that you identified in act one. This usually involves directional research, such as usability tests, where you assess a potential solution (such as a design) to see whether it addresses the issues that you found. The issues could include unmet needs or problems with a flow or process that’s tripping users up. Like act two in a movie, more issues will crop up along the way. It’s here that you learn more about the characters as they grow and develop through this act.
Usability tests should typically include around five participants according to Jakob Nielsen, who found that that number of users can usually identify most of the problems: “As you add more and more users, you learn less and less because you will keep seeing the same things again and again… After the fifth user, you are wasting your time by observing the same findings repeatedly but not learning much new.”
There are parallels with storytelling here too; if you try to tell a story with too many characters, the plot may get lost. Having fewer participants means that each user’s struggles will be more memorable and easier to relay to other stakeholders when talking about the research. This can help convey the issues that need to be addressed while also highlighting the value of doing the research in the first place.
Researchers have run usability tests in person for decades, but you can also conduct usability tests remotely using tools like Microsoft Teams, Zoom, or other teleconferencing software. This approach has become increasingly popular since the beginning of the pandemic, and it works well. You can think of in-person usability tests like going to a play and remote sessions as more like watching a movie. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. In-person usability research is a much richer experience. Stakeholders can experience the sessions with other stakeholders. You also get real-time reactions—including surprise, agreement, disagreement, and discussions about what they’re seeing. Much like going to a play, where audiences get to take in the stage, the costumes, the lighting, and the actors’ interactions, in-person research lets you see users up close, including their body language, how they interact with the moderator, and how the scene is set up.
If in-person usability testing is like watching a play—staged and controlled—then conducting usability testing in the field is like immersive theater where any two sessions might be very different from one another. You can take usability testing into the field by creating a replica of the space where users interact with the product and then conduct your research there. Or you can go out to meet users at their location to do your research. With either option, you get to see how things work in context, things come up that wouldn’t have in a lab environment—and conversion can shift in entirely different directions. As researchers, you have less control over how these sessions go, but this can sometimes help you understand users even better. Meeting users where they are can provide clues to the external forces that could be affecting how they use your product. In-person usability tests provide another level of detail that’s often missing from remote usability tests.
That’s not to say that the “movies”—remote sessions—aren’t a good option. Remote sessions can reach a wider audience. They allow a lot more stakeholders to be involved in the research and to see what’s going on. And they open the doors to a much wider geographical pool of users. But with any remote session there is the potential of time wasted if participants can’t log in or get their microphone working.
The benefit of usability testing, whether remote or in person, is that you get to see real users interact with the designs in real time, and you can ask them questions to understand their thought processes and grasp of the solution. This can help you not only identify problems but also glean why they’re problems in the first place. Furthermore, you can test hypotheses and gauge whether your thinking is correct. By the end of the sessions, you’ll have a much clearer picture of how usable the designs are and whether they work for their intended purposes. Act two is the heart of the story—where the excitement is—but there can be surprises too. This is equally true of usability tests. Often, participants will say unexpected things, which change the way that you look at things—and these twists in the story can move things in new directions.
Unfortunately, user research is sometimes seen as expendable. And too often usability testing is the only research process that some stakeholders think that they ever need. In fact, if the designs that you’re evaluating in the usability test aren’t grounded in a solid understanding of your users (foundational research), there’s not much to be gained by doing usability testing in the first place. That’s because you’re narrowing the focus of what you’re getting feedback on, without understanding the users’ needs. As a result, there’s no way of knowing whether the designs might solve a problem that users have. It’s only feedback on a particular design in the context of a usability test.
On the other hand, if you only do foundational research, while you might have set out to solve the right problem, you won’t know whether the thing that you’re building will actually solve that. This illustrates the importance of doing both foundational and directional research.
In act two, stakeholders will—hopefully—get to watch the story unfold in the user sessions, which creates the conflict and tension in the current design by surfacing their highs and lows. And in turn, this can help motivate stakeholders to address the issues that come up.
Act three: resolution
While the first two acts are about understanding the background and the tensions that can propel stakeholders into action, the third part is about resolving the problems from the first two acts. While it’s important to have an audience for the first two acts, it’s crucial that they stick around for the final act. That means the whole product team, including developers, UX practitioners, business analysts, delivery managers, product managers, and any other stakeholders that have a say in the next steps. It allows the whole team to hear users’ feedback together, ask questions, and discuss what’s possible within the project’s constraints. And it lets the UX research and design teams clarify, suggest alternatives, or give more context behind their decisions. So you can get everyone on the same page and get agreement on the way forward.
This act is mostly told in voiceover with some audience participation. The researcher is the narrator, who paints a picture of the issues and what the future of the product could look like given the things that the team has learned. They give the stakeholders their recommendations and their guidance on creating this vision.
Nancy Duarte in the Harvard Business Review offers an approach to structuring presentations that follow a persuasive story. “The most effective presenters use the same techniques as great storytellers: By reminding people of the status quo and then revealing the path to a better way, they set up a conflict that needs to be resolved,” writes Duarte. “That tension helps them persuade the audience to adopt a new mindset or behave differently.”
This type of structure aligns well with research results, and particularly results from usability tests. It provides evidence for “what is”—the problems that you’ve identified. And “what could be”—your recommendations on how to address them. And so on and so forth.
You can reinforce your recommendations with examples of things that competitors are doing that could address these issues or with examples where competitors are gaining an edge. Or they can be visual, like quick mockups of how a new design could look that solves a problem. These can help generate conversation and momentum. And this continues until the end of the session when you’ve wrapped everything up in the conclusion by summarizing the main issues and suggesting a way forward. This is the part where you reiterate the main themes or problems and what they mean for the product—the denouement of the story. This stage gives stakeholders the next steps and hopefully the momentum to take those steps!
While we are nearly at the end of this story, let’s reflect on the idea that user research is storytelling. All the elements of a good story are there in the three-act structure of user research:
- Act one: You meet the protagonists (the users) and the antagonists (the problems affecting users). This is the beginning of the plot. In act one, researchers might use methods including contextual inquiry, ethnography, diary studies, surveys, and analytics. The output of these methods can include personas, empathy maps, user journeys, and analytics dashboards.
- Act two: Next, there’s character development. There’s conflict and tension as the protagonists encounter problems and challenges, which they must overcome. In act two, researchers might use methods including usability testing, competitive benchmarking, and heuristics evaluation. The output of these can include usability findings reports, UX strategy documents, usability guidelines, and best practices.
- Act three: The protagonists triumph and you see what a better future looks like. In act three, researchers may use methods including presentation decks, storytelling, and digital media. The output of these can be: presentation decks, video clips, audio clips, and pictures.
The researcher has multiple roles: they’re the storyteller, the director, and the producer. The participants have a small role, but they are significant characters (in the research). And the stakeholders are the audience. But the most important thing is to get the story right and to use storytelling to tell users’ stories through research. By the end, the stakeholders should walk away with a purpose and an eagerness to resolve the product’s ills.
So the next time that you’re planning research with clients or you’re speaking to stakeholders about research that you’ve done, think about how you can weave in some storytelling. Ultimately, user research is a win-win for everyone, and you just need to get stakeholders interested in how the story ends.
From Beta to Bedrock: Build Products that Stick.
As a product builder over too many years to mention, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve seen promising ideas go from zero to hero in a few weeks, only to fizzle out within months.
Financial products, which is the field I work in, are no exception. With people’s real hard-earned money on the line, user expectations running high, and a crowded market, it’s tempting to throw as many features at the wall as possible and hope something sticks. But this approach is a recipe for disaster. Here’s why:
The pitfalls of feature-first development
When you start building a financial product from the ground up, or are migrating existing customer journeys from paper or telephony channels onto online banking or mobile apps, it’s easy to get caught up in the excitement of creating new features. You might think, “If I can just add one more thing that solves this particular user problem, they’ll love me!” But what happens when you inevitably hit a roadblock because the narcs (your security team!) don’t like it? When a hard-fought feature isn’t as popular as you thought, or it breaks due to unforeseen complexity?
This is where the concept of Minimum Viable Product (MVP) comes in. Jason Fried’s book Getting Real and his podcast Rework often touch on this idea, even if he doesn’t always call it that. An MVP is a product that provides just enough value to your users to keep them engaged, but not so much that it becomes overwhelming or difficult to maintain. It sounds like an easy concept but it requires a razor sharp eye, a ruthless edge and having the courage to stick by your opinion because it is easy to be seduced by “the Columbo Effect”… when there’s always “just one more thing…” that someone wants to add.
The problem with most finance apps, however, is that they often become a reflection of the internal politics of the business rather than an experience solely designed around the customer. This means that the focus is on delivering as many features and functionalities as possible to satisfy the needs and desires of competing internal departments, rather than providing a clear value proposition that is focused on what the people out there in the real world want. As a result, these products can very easily bloat to become a mixed bag of confusing, unrelated and ultimately unlovable customer experiences—a feature salad, you might say.
The importance of bedrock
So what’s a better approach? How can we build products that are stable, user-friendly, and—most importantly—stick?
That’s where the concept of “bedrock” comes in. Bedrock is the core element of your product that truly matters to users. It’s the fundamental building block that provides value and stays relevant over time.
In the world of retail banking, which is where I work, the bedrock has got to be in and around the regular servicing journeys. People open their current account once in a blue moon but they look at it every day. They sign up for a credit card every year or two, but they check their balance and pay their bill at least once a month.
Identifying the core tasks that people want to do and then relentlessly striving to make them easy to do, dependable, and trustworthy is where the gravy’s at.
But how do you get to bedrock? By focusing on the “MVP” approach, prioritizing simplicity, and iterating towards a clear value proposition. This means cutting out unnecessary features and focusing on delivering real value to your users.
It also means having some guts, because your colleagues might not always instantly share your vision to start with. And controversially, sometimes it can even mean making it clear to customers that you’re not going to come to their house and make their dinner. The occasional “opinionated user interface design” (i.e. clunky workaround for edge cases) might sometimes be what you need to use to test a concept or buy you space to work on something more important.
Practical strategies for building financial products that stick
So what are the key strategies I’ve learned from my own experience and research?
- Start with a clear “why”: What problem are you trying to solve? For whom? Make sure your mission is crystal clear before building anything. Make sure it aligns with your company’s objectives, too.
- Focus on a single, core feature and obsess on getting that right before moving on to something else: Resist the temptation to add too many features at once. Instead, choose one that delivers real value and iterate from there.
- Prioritize simplicity over complexity: Less is often more when it comes to financial products. Cut out unnecessary bells and whistles and keep the focus on what matters most.
- Embrace continuous iteration: Bedrock isn’t a fixed destination—it’s a dynamic process. Continuously gather user feedback, refine your product, and iterate towards that bedrock state.
- Stop, look and listen: Don’t just test your product as part of your delivery process—test it repeatedly in the field. Use it yourself. Run A/B tests. Gather user feedback. Talk to people who use it, and refine accordingly.
The bedrock paradox
There’s an interesting paradox at play here: building towards bedrock means sacrificing some short-term growth potential in favour of long-term stability. But the payoff is worth it—products built with a focus on bedrock will outlast and outperform their competitors, and deliver sustained value to users over time.
So, how do you start your journey towards bedrock? Take it one step at a time. Start by identifying those core elements that truly matter to your users. Focus on building and refining a single, powerful feature that delivers real value. And above all, test obsessively—for, in the words of Abraham Lincoln, Alan Kay, or Peter Drucker (whomever you believe!!), “The best way to predict the future is to create it.”
An Holistic Framework for Shared Design Leadership
Picture this: You’re in a meeting room at your tech company, and two people are having what looks like the same conversation about the same design problem. One is talking about whether the team has the right skills to tackle it. The other is diving deep into whether the solution actually solves the user’s problem. Same room, same problem, completely different lenses.
This is the beautiful, sometimes messy reality of having both a Design Manager and a Lead Designer on the same team. And if you’re wondering how to make this work without creating confusion, overlap, or the dreaded “too many cooks” scenario, you’re asking the right question.
The traditional answer has been to draw clean lines on an org chart. The Design Manager handles people, the Lead Designer handles craft. Problem solved, right? Except clean org charts are fantasy. In reality, both roles care deeply about team health, design quality, and shipping great work.
The magic happens when you embrace the overlap instead of fighting it—when you start thinking of your design org as a design organism.
The Anatomy of a Healthy Design Team
Here’s what I’ve learned from years of being on both sides of this equation: think of your design team as a living organism. The Design Manager tends to the mind (the psychological safety, the career growth, the team dynamics). The Lead Designer tends to the body (the craft skills, the design standards, the hands-on work that ships to users).
But just like mind and body aren’t completely separate systems, so, too, do these roles overlap in important ways. You can’t have a healthy person without both working in harmony. The trick is knowing where those overlaps are and how to navigate them gracefully.
When we look at how healthy teams actually function, three critical systems emerge. Each requires both roles to work together, but with one taking primary responsibility for keeping that system strong.
The Nervous System: People & Psychology
Primary caretaker: Design Manager
Supporting role: Lead Designer
The nervous system is all about signals, feedback, and psychological safety. When this system is healthy, information flows freely, people feel safe to take risks, and the team can adapt quickly to new challenges.
The Design Manager is the primary caretaker here. They’re monitoring the team’s psychological pulse, ensuring feedback loops are healthy, and creating the conditions for people to grow. They’re hosting career conversations, managing workload, and making sure no one burns out.
But the Lead Designer plays a crucial supporting role. They’re providing sensory input about craft development needs, spotting when someone’s design skills are stagnating, and helping identify growth opportunities that the Design Manager might miss.
Design Manager tends to:
- Career conversations and growth planning
- Team psychological safety and dynamics
- Workload management and resource allocation
- Performance reviews and feedback systems
- Creating learning opportunities
Lead Designer supports by:
- Providing craft-specific feedback on team member development
- Identifying design skill gaps and growth opportunities
- Offering design mentorship and guidance
- Signaling when team members are ready for more complex challenges
The Muscular System: Craft & Execution
Primary caretaker: Lead Designer
Supporting role: Design Manager
The muscular system is about strength, coordination, and skill development. When this system is healthy, the team can execute complex design work with precision, maintain consistent quality, and adapt their craft to new challenges.
The Lead Designer is the primary caretaker here. They’re setting design standards, providing craft coaching, and ensuring that shipping work meets the quality bar. They’re the ones who can tell you if a design decision is sound or if we’re solving the right problem.
But the Design Manager plays a crucial supporting role. They’re ensuring the team has the resources and support to do their best craft work, like proper nutrition and recovery time for an athlete.
Lead Designer tends to:
- Definition of design standards and system usage
- Feedback on what design work meets the standard
- Experience direction for the product
- Design decisions and product-wide alignment
- Innovation and craft advancement
Design Manager supports by:
- Ensuring design standards are understood and adopted across the team
- Confirming experience direction is being followed
- Supporting practices and systems that scale without bottlenecking
- Facilitating design alignment across teams
- Providing resources and removing obstacles to great craft work
The Circulatory System: Strategy & Flow
Shared caretakers: Both Design Manager and Lead Designer
The circulatory system is about how information, decisions, and energy flow through the team. When this system is healthy, strategic direction is clear, priorities are aligned, and the team can respond quickly to new opportunities or challenges.
This is where true partnership happens. Both roles are responsible for keeping the circulation strong, but they’re bringing different perspectives to the table.
Lead Designer contributes:
- User needs are met by the product
- Overall product quality and experience
- Strategic design initiatives
- Research-based user needs for each initiative
Design Manager contributes:
- Communication to team and stakeholders
- Stakeholder management and alignment
- Cross-functional team accountability
- Strategic business initiatives
Both collaborate on:
- Co-creation of strategy with leadership
- Team goals and prioritization approach
- Organizational structure decisions
- Success measures and frameworks
Keeping the Organism Healthy
The key to making this partnership sing is understanding that all three systems need to work together. A team with great craft skills but poor psychological safety will burn out. A team with great culture but weak craft execution will ship mediocre work. A team with both but poor strategic circulation will work hard on the wrong things.
Be Explicit About Which System You’re Tending
When you’re in a meeting about a design problem, it helps to acknowledge which system you’re primarily focused on. “I’m thinking about this from a team capacity perspective” (nervous system) or “I’m looking at this through the lens of user needs” (muscular system) gives everyone context for your input.
This isn’t about staying in your lane. It’s about being transparent as to which lens you’re using, so the other person knows how to best add their perspective.
Create Healthy Feedback Loops
The most successful partnerships I’ve seen establish clear feedback loops between the systems:
Nervous system signals to muscular system: “The team is struggling with confidence in their design skills” → Lead Designer provides more craft coaching and clearer standards.
Muscular system signals to nervous system: “The team’s craft skills are advancing faster than their project complexity” → Design Manager finds more challenging growth opportunities.
Both systems signal to circulatory system: “We’re seeing patterns in team health and craft development that suggest we need to adjust our strategic priorities.”
Handle Handoffs Gracefully
The most critical moments in this partnership are when something moves from one system to another. This might be when a design standard (muscular system) needs to be rolled out across the team (nervous system), or when a strategic initiative (circulatory system) needs specific craft execution (muscular system).
Make these transitions explicit. “I’ve defined the new component standards. Can you help me think through how to get the team up to speed?” or “We’ve agreed on this strategic direction. I’m going to focus on the specific user experience approach from here.”
Stay Curious, Not Territorial
The Design Manager who never thinks about craft, or the Lead Designer who never considers team dynamics, is like a doctor who only looks at one body system. Great design leadership requires both people to care about the whole organism, even when they’re not the primary caretaker.
This means asking questions rather than making assumptions. “What do you think about the team’s craft development in this area?” or “How do you see this impacting team morale and workload?” keeps both perspectives active in every decision.
When the Organism Gets Sick
Even with clear roles, this partnership can go sideways. Here are the most common failure modes I’ve seen:
System Isolation
The Design Manager focuses only on the nervous system and ignores craft development. The Lead Designer focuses only on the muscular system and ignores team dynamics. Both people retreat to their comfort zones and stop collaborating.
The symptoms: Team members get mixed messages, work quality suffers, morale drops.
The treatment: Reconnect around shared outcomes. What are you both trying to achieve? Usually it’s great design work that ships on time from a healthy team. Figure out how both systems serve that goal.
Poor Circulation
Strategic direction is unclear, priorities keep shifting, and neither role is taking responsibility for keeping information flowing.
The symptoms: Team members are confused about priorities, work gets duplicated or dropped, deadlines are missed.
The treatment: Explicitly assign responsibility for circulation. Who’s communicating what to whom? How often? What’s the feedback loop?
Autoimmune Response
One person feels threatened by the other’s expertise. The Design Manager thinks the Lead Designer is undermining their authority. The Lead Designer thinks the Design Manager doesn’t understand craft.
The symptoms: Defensive behavior, territorial disputes, team members caught in the middle.
The treatment: Remember that you’re both caretakers of the same organism. When one system fails, the whole team suffers. When both systems are healthy, the team thrives.
The Payoff
Yes, this model requires more communication. Yes, it requires both people to be secure enough to share responsibility for team health. But the payoff is worth it: better decisions, stronger teams, and design work that’s both excellent and sustainable.
When both roles are healthy and working well together, you get the best of both worlds: deep craft expertise and strong people leadership. When one person is out sick, on vacation, or overwhelmed, the other can help maintain the team’s health. When a decision requires both the people perspective and the craft perspective, you’ve got both right there in the room.
Most importantly, the framework scales. As your team grows, you can apply the same system thinking to new challenges. Need to launch a design system? Lead Designer tends to the muscular system (standards and implementation), Design Manager tends to the nervous system (team adoption and change management), and both tend to circulation (communication and stakeholder alignment).
The Bottom Line
The relationship between a Design Manager and Lead Designer isn’t about dividing territories. It’s about multiplying impact. When both roles understand they’re tending to different aspects of the same healthy organism, magic happens.
The mind and body work together. The team gets both the strategic thinking and the craft excellence they need. And most importantly, the work that ships to users benefits from both perspectives.
So the next time you’re in that meeting room, wondering why two people are talking about the same problem from different angles, remember: you’re watching shared leadership in action. And if it’s working well, both the mind and body of your design team are getting stronger.
Is Traditional Marketing Dead? Why Strategy Wins in the Age of AI
Is Traditional Marketing Dead? Why Strategy Wins in the Age of AI written by Sara Nay read more at Duct Tape Marketing
Over the past 15 years, I’ve watched marketing evolve in ways we never could’ve imagined. When I started as an intern at Duct Tape Marketing, the name of the game was execution. Do the work. Deliver the thing. Check the box.Back then, success meant staying busy. Creating deliverables, managing campaigns, launching tactics. And honestly, that […]
The Long-Haul Leader with Chris Ducker written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing
Overview
In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Chris Ducker, serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and founder of Youpreneur. Chris shares lessons from his new book, “The Long-Haul Leader: How to Lead and Win in the Long Game of Business,” and explains why sustainable success requires patience, consistency, self-care, and transparency. The conversation covers the power of personal “operating systems,” the value of creative hobbies, the importance of prioritizing recovery, and how vulnerability and leading out loud foster loyalty and real connection in business and life.
About the Guest
Chris Ducker is a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and founder of Youpreneur, a global personal brand business education company. Recognized for his candid, actionable advice on entrepreneurship and personal brand leadership, Chris has helped countless business owners scale and lead for the long haul. His books, “Rise of the Youpreneur” and “The Long-Haul Leader,” offer roadmaps for building sustainable businesses—and lives—rooted in clarity, community, and authenticity.
- Website: chrisducker.com
- Book: longhaulleader.com
Actionable Insights
- Short-term wins are loud, but true impact “whispers until it starts roaring”—sustainable success is built on patience, consistency, and showing up for the long haul.
- “Hustle” is a season, not a lifestyle. Lasting growth comes from intentional focus, recovery, and doing unflashy work behind the scenes.
- The Long-Haul Leader framework is built on four pillars: personal mastery, hobbies/pastimes, love/relationships, and impactful work—with balance and alignment at the core.
- Creative hobbies and prioritizing recovery boost productivity and satisfaction—entrepreneurs with hobbies are more successful at work.
- Measuring progress in these areas means tracking not just KPIs, but also personal growth, creative time, and meaningful relationships.
- Transparency and “leading out loud” build trust—sharing both wins and struggles creates stronger teams and connections.
- Reinvention is essential. Burnout and setbacks are part of the journey; prioritizing health, joy, and the right people is key to bouncing back.
Great Moments (with Timestamps)
- 01:22 – The Dangers of Short-Termism and the Power of the Long Game
Chris explains how patience and consistency outlast hustle culture for real business impact. - 05:02 – Focus Over Followers
Why clarity, intention, and saying “no” matter more than chasing every shiny object or platform. - 07:28 – The Operating System for Long-Haul Leadership
Chris introduces his four-part framework: personal mastery, hobbies, relationships, and impactful work. - 11:39 – Hobbies and Recovery Aren’t Optional
Research (and Chris’s own experience) show creative hobbies and recovery time dramatically improve performance. - 16:38 – The Power of Analog and Using Your Hands
How woodworking, painting, and hands-on hobbies can boost mental clarity and satisfaction. - 17:06 – Burnout and Reinvention
Chris shares his own story of hitting rock bottom, recovering, and reshaping his business and life. - 20:07 – Leading Out Loud: The Value of Vulnerability
Why openness, transparency, and sharing the journey matter for modern leadership. - 22:36 – Writing the Book as Memoir, Roadmap, and Call to Action
Chris describes how personal stories and practical frameworks combine to help others lead for the long haul.
Pulled Quotes
“Short-term wins are loud. Long-term impact whispers—until it starts roaring.”
— Chris Ducker
“Hustle is a season, not a lifestyle. Prioritizing recovery and the right people is the secret to lasting success.”
— Chris Ducker
John Jantsch (00:00.898)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Chris Ducker. He’s a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author and founder of Youpnur, a global personal brand business education company. He’s recognized for his candid actionable advice on entrepreneurship, business growth and personal brand leadership. He’s been on this show before with a couple of his other books, For Sure Rise of the Youpnur, I think.
shaped countless business owners to scale and lead. And we’re going to talk about his latest book, The Long-Haul Leader, How to Lead and Win in the Long Game of Business. So Chris, welcome to the show.
@ChrisDucker (00:39.814)
Yeah, thanks for having me back, John. Appreciate it.
John Jantsch (00:41.666)
So serial entrepreneur, know, my mind goes to like Frosted Flakes or something, is there a favorite serial in the UK that we don’t have over here maybe?
@ChrisDucker (00:53.01)
Boy, I don’t know. That’s a really good question to kick off the chat. I’m pretty sure that we’ve got everything you’ve got and you’ve probably got about another gazillion other serials that we don’t have, I would think.
John Jantsch (01:06.359)
You’ve certainly got something dry and drier and tastelesser.
@ChrisDucker (01:11.784)
I was going say we generally don’t do cereal in our house. I think the last time I had a bowl of cereal, was probably something bland and boring like cornflakes or something like that.
John Jantsch (01:22.094)
Okay. All right. So in the book, you take on something you call short-termism, which I guess is obviously the opposite of the long haul. Was there a time in your business? mean, a lot of authors are really just writing like from the insights they’ve had over, you know, growing their own businesses. When did you realize the long game? Was it, did you have to be in the long game to realize the long game’s value?
@ChrisDucker (01:39.335)
Yep.
@ChrisDucker (01:50.024)
That’s a question. I think that I probably felt it initially, probably maybe 10 years or so ago when we opened up the doors to Uprenur. At that point, I’d already had two other businesses that were both doing very, very well indeed. Funnily enough, both those businesses we’ve now exited and sold over recent years. So the only business that we run now day to day is Uprenur.
And we’ve niched that down now to serve business authors and help them not only write and market their books and launch their books, but also to build businesses around their books and the frameworks that live within them. And that’s going really, really well right now as well. So I believe that when we opened up the doors to Upino, there was a lot of kind of membership sites out there teaching you how to market and your business and grow your business, become a creator and all that kind of stuff. But for me,
John Jantsch (02:29.976)
Mm-hmm.
@ChrisDucker (02:48.584)
I remember saying, this is going to be probably like the next 10, 15 years of my life, I think. Like I felt really quite positive and confident on that fact. And the the real reason here is that the other factor here is I think that ultimately, particularly as an entrepreneur, like we’re kind of conditioned to go after those quick wins, right? Those fast wins, those shiny object wins, as I call them, but
John Jantsch (03:09.432)
Mm-hmm.
@ChrisDucker (03:13.85)
If you think about how short-term wins are quite loud, you go for something, you grab them, you celebrate it in a loud way, the way I look at long-term impact is really it whispers and whispers and whispers until it starts roaring. I’m all about the roar at this point. The real game should be patience and consistency and showing up even when it’s not sexy, doing the un…
the unflashy work behind the scenes and all that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, I think there’s certainly something to be said for hustle, right? And hustle culture. There’s nothing wrong with a little hustle every now and then. And you will hustle anyway, just naturally by being a business owner, a deadline, a project that you want to get out the door by a certain date or something along those lines. But generally speaking, it’s not sustainable to be in that hustle mindset for too long. In fact, hustle, if you think about it, is a season.
It’s not a lifestyle. I talk about that in the book, obviously.
John Jantsch (04:10.254)
Yeah. But help me a little bit. mean, I get this. I’ve been doing this 30 years, you know, so I get, you know, what happens is you, you develop muscles and you develop memory and that helps you with the long game. Like every year in our business, February is a terrible month. And it must have something to do with, you know, the cycle of, of, know, what people do in business. You know, it’s like everybody wants to close the year and, you know, big time. And then there’s like kind of this exhale.
And so younger members of my team are like, leads are way down, know, business is way down. What are we going to do? And I’m like, it’s always this way. You know, just, just wait for March. It’ll be fine. You know, but, that until you’ve been through it 10 times, you know, it’s hard to have that mindset. So how does a, how does a younger entrepreneur in this case, develop that long-term mindset without kind of the, benefit of, you hindsight.
@ChrisDucker (04:45.869)
Yeah. Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (05:02.982)
Yeah, I think, you know, particularly the younger generation, my daughter, Chloe, as I know your daughter’s with your company, Chloe’s been with us now for six years. She’s our COO at Upanose. She’s amazing, but she’s also quite kind of KPI and kind of target focused and she wants to kind of chase down the next goal quite a bit. And I, you know, I always say that first and foremost, leadership in general, leading the game in whatever niche you’re in is not about being
John Jantsch (05:17.474)
Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (05:32.11)
everywhere. Genuinely, it’s not. It’s about being where it really matters. So you don’t have to worry about being on every platform, chasing down every goal, every verification badge that you can get and all that kind of stuff. It’s about choosing your presence with intention and working from a place of non-insecurity or no insecurity. The other thing is that
John Jantsch (05:33.409)
Mm-hmm.
@ChrisDucker (05:59.654)
I kind of like the idea. Like I’ve been saying this a lot recently, particularly to younger people. My son is 16 now and he’s, he’s a big music fan and he’s kind of creating his own music and he’s putting it up on Spotify and YouTube and all these kinds of places. And he gets like really, that I just hit 200 subscribers and you know, it just hit a thousand streams and all this kind of stuff. And I keep saying, look, you don’t need more followers. You don’t need more followers. You just need more focus, right? You’ve got to like focus on the clarity.
Don’t worry about constant content out, know, da, da, da, da, da, know, every available opportunity, like build that focus, knock out something really good on a weekly or a monthly basis. And the momentum will follow plain and simple. And so I think overall, the question is, yes, I can respect people want quick wins and they want to chase down those, those goals, but ultimately any kind of suggest or rather any kind of success that kind of, or suggest that you’re, you know,
have bad health because of it or family or start doing it from a place of non-committal joy. That’s pure sacrifice right there. That’s not success. I want my kids to be successful just like I want all my clients to be successful as well.
John Jantsch (07:13.518)
Well, before we get too much further in the show, the book is built, I mean, as all good books, you give people a, it’s not just a concept, here’s a framework. Here’s actually the steps to do it. So you want to kind of as high level as you want to go unpack what the steps are in the framework.
@ChrisDucker (07:22.482)
Yep.
@ChrisDucker (07:28.456)
Yeah. So when I first started writing the book, so this all came about out of 2021, we were in the middle of pandemic. I had a burnout, a pretty bad burnout. I was actually diagnosed with anxiety, depression, which I didn’t see coming at all. And I had phase three adrenal failure, which basically meant that my adrenal glands, which are two little glands that sit on top of your kidneys, they create cortisol, which is your stress hormone, right?
They flatlined, they weren’t creating any cortisol, so I couldn’t handle stress. And the more stress it got, the worse it got and so on and so on. So I had to take a period of time off and kind of recoup and relook at things. And I noticed when I was writing notes down, and I was doing this mostly for me at this point, not for the book, but whenever I was writing notes down or listening to a podcast or watching a video or whatever it was, talking to somebody, I noticed that the…
The notes I was taking, the things I was taking away from these discussions kept landing in four very, very distinct buckets. And they were hobbies and pastimes, which was a big one out of left field. It didn’t see that coming at all. It was love and relationships. It was personal mastery, so upgrading yourself, et cetera. And then the work that you do, right? And so I sat down and I kind of…
worked through this and looked at how we could put this into a framework when we actually started planning the book. And that’s what we did. We basically put it into this four step, if you imagine a bit of a Venn diagram, it’s the only image in the entire book. There’s one image in the whole book and this is it. And we’ve called it the long haul leader life OS or operating system. Because my mindset was, well, if our phones have got an OS, our computers have got an OS, why can’t we have an OS as well?
And so if you imagine where personal mastery and hobbies and pastimes kind of overlap, the time that we spend doing those things represents the balance that we have between our self-improvement and obviously the activities that we enjoy doing. Where hobbies and relationships and love clash, memories, right, the actual memories that we create, they reflect those meaningful
John Jantsch (09:26.488)
Mm.
@ChrisDucker (09:42.212)
experiences that we create, right, while we’re pursuing these passions and nurturing these relationships and whatnot. And then going further, where love and relationships and the work that we do, or impactful work, as I talk about it in the book, where those actually overlap, then what we’re talking about here is like, showing how meaningful work ultimately enables personal freedom, but also strengthens the relationships both at work and away from work as well. And then finally,
the personal mastery side of things and how that clashes and overlaps with the work that we do. This kind of like excites me a lot is it all comes down to the clients and they reflect the value and the influence that we generate from the people that we work with and how we apply our own expertise into our work. it’s a business book. And it’s interesting with my publisher, we have a pretty long drawn out discussion over like, how do we position this? Is it a leadership book? Is it a self-help book?
John Jantsch (10:36.536)
Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (10:40.186)
Is it personal development? it business? We ended up sticking it into a leadership category, but ultimately it’s a little bit of all of those things. And I’m kind of joking a little bit when I talk to friends about it, saying when it’s kind of part memoir, part roadmap, and that’s kind of where we’re going.
John Jantsch (10:56.142)
Well, I’ve always said that I think entrepreneurship is probably the ultimate personal development. Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, I think you could rightly call personal development or self-help even because I mean, regardless if you’re running a business, mean, almost everybody has those four areas at some level in their life, even if they’re working for a company.
@ChrisDucker (11:04.04)
it totally is. If you want to do it right.
@ChrisDucker (11:21.01)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (11:24.758)
All good frameworks come with a way to measure. Are we making progress? Are we setting the right priorities? How do you suggest, especially when you start getting into things like hobbies, as you’ve mentioned, mean, how do you measure like, I doing it right?
@ChrisDucker (11:39.27)
Yeah, the hobbies thing, like I said, came out of left field. I didn’t see this one coming. I, through the research that we did through the book, the people that were interviewed for the book and things like that, it was pretty apparent to me that those entrepreneurs, very specifically entrepreneurs, as well as C-suite executives and things like that, but mostly entrepreneurs that we talked to, those that had hobbies were a heck of a lot productive and more successful in their work compared to people that did not have hobbies.
John Jantsch (11:42.445)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (11:46.072)
me
John Jantsch (12:00.056)
Thanks.
@ChrisDucker (12:09.16)
I started looking into this even further and I found that creative hobbies, very specifically things like painting or anything to do with music and that kind of stuff. I’m a watercolour, nature watercolour. Yeah. And I also do bonsai as well, which is quite creative as well. Got to keep the things alive first and foremost. So the horticulture side of things comes in the play first. But yeah, so what we found with the creative hobbies was really interesting. So
John Jantsch (12:10.958)
Okay.
John Jantsch (12:16.426)
Mm-hmm. And I think you do painting, don’t you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
John Jantsch (12:29.069)
Yeah.
Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (12:39.036)
I went down a rabbit hole and I started looking at like, there any famous people that are like in corporate America, corporate world who have got like creative hobbies? There’s one guy we found, David Solomon, who is the CEO of Goldman Sachs. David Solomon is also known as DJ D Sol. And he is one of the most sought after dance DJs in America. Everything he makes, he gives to charity because he doesn’t need the money, obviously.
John Jantsch (12:45.26)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Jantsch (13:00.608)
funny.
@ChrisDucker (13:08.232)
But when you look at the statistic, and this came out of a Forbes survey, I believe, that if you engage in a creative hobby as an entrepreneur or a high level executive for a minimum of two hours a week, on average, you’re looking at about a 30 % boost on your performance at work, which is pretty telling. So the overall arching message here is go get a hobby and make it a creative one, ultimately.
John Jantsch (13:29.154)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (13:35.618)
I mean, did the research suggest why that is though? I mean, what does it rewire your brain? Is it like give you something else to think about? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
@ChrisDucker (13:39.24)
I think it comes down to prioritizing recovery fundamentally. It’s prioritizing recovery. And that is what I’ve personally seen as well in me stepping away from work more often. The work that I do now, Monday, because I don’t work Fridays, I haven’t worked Fridays for many, years. Monday to Friday, I work 10 a.m. to 4 p.m.
So it’s not a lot of time quote unquote in the office, but I am more productive than I ever have been. And I go out on nature walks almost every day. I’m very blessed to live in the countryside here in England. So I’m out and about on nature and everything pretty regularly become a little bit of a birdwatcher. Actually, I’m the guy walking around with a big lens now in the morning, just in case something cool pops out of a bush somewhere. But on a very serious note, have noticed unreservedly noticed that
John Jantsch (14:21.048)
Mm-hmm.
@ChrisDucker (14:32.912)
I feel more confident in the work that I’m doing. I get more done. I’m hitting my KPIs. My to-do lists disappear almost on a daily, if not definitely a weekly basis. And my team started the follow suit as well. So we’re now a no work Friday company. And everybody loves that, obviously, a four day work week. And there is just something about prioritizing your recovery that allows you to become better at what you do at work.
John Jantsch (14:58.03)
I wonder sometimes too, if people like us that have their hands on a keyboard a lot of days and we’re staring into virtual cameras. I wonder if there’s also something, if we want to go down another rabbit hole to doing a hobby that uses your hands, that is analog, that really gets you away from a computer screen completely. I actually enjoy woodworking. I build furniture and things. I always say that all the time. I mean, there’s something.
about holding this thing that used to be alive, you know, this tree that used to be alive. And I think there is something physical as well as mental about that.
@ChrisDucker (15:37.224)
I went to a conference, fair. was the Global Bird Fair just last weekend. I’ll show you something on camera here. So if you’re listening on audio, sorry, you’re going to miss this. But I bought this. This is a little nut hatch. Yeah. And I paid, think probably the equivalent of about $90 US for it. But I didn’t necessarily buy it because I wanted this to sit on my desk, although it does look pretty cool.
John Jantsch (15:49.513)
yeah, yeah, a little carved nut touch, yeah.
@ChrisDucker (16:06.128)
I bought it because after talking with the sculptor for 30 minutes, I was invested in the journey. I was invested in what he was all about. This guy was retired, mid seventies, does about five hours a day in his workshop, pretty much seven days a week. Loves what he does and travels the country selling his woodwork and making a little money after retirement. But it was the joy.
John Jantsch (16:13.037)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Jantsch (16:23.042)
Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (16:32.196)
in his face and his words when he spoke about doing what he did and what he loved. And there’s something to be said for that, you know?
John Jantsch (16:32.227)
haha
John Jantsch (16:38.798)
Yeah, 100%. Well, we could do a whole nother show on this. We better get back to another topic in the book that you cover a lot. And again, you use yourself, I think of stories of reinvention. there a particularly painful, people love painful stories, or is there a particularly painful one or maybe something that you got through because of maybe taking this long haul approach?
@ChrisDucker (16:43.549)
Ha
@ChrisDucker (17:06.408)
Well, I mean, it’s the burnout of 2021. know, that was, it was interesting because that year we had a phenomenal year business-wise. We made a whole bunch of money. We served probably well over 300 people within our UPINR programs, maybe even a little more actually. It was just a great year and all the work I was doing, like genuinely John, like I was loving it. Loving the work.
John Jantsch (17:08.492)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
@ChrisDucker (17:32.636)
love the people we’re working with, love doing the track, you know, everything that we were doing to kind of like, you know, turn up and train people and all the rest of it. was just a great year, but little did I know deep down, I was just wearing myself out further and further and further and further. And when you hit a rock bottom, like, like if you’d have asked me five, like seven, eight years ago, do you ever think you’ll be treated like clinically with drugs for depression, Chris? I would have called you mad, mad. Yeah. There I was.
John Jantsch (17:35.534)
you
John Jantsch (17:56.407)
Mmm, yeah.
@ChrisDucker (18:01.786)
on antidepressants for 18 months to bounce back from it. So it was very much a fish out of water situation for me. I didn’t really feel it coming all that much. And when it hit me, it hit me really, really, really hard. And I did what most kind of quite addictive personality type people do. And I kind of went all in on it. And I, you know, I went down, I went down the nutrition route, the
the whole kind of biohacking route. did a whole bunch of blood work. I started wearing a wearable to track everything from sleep and recovery and the heart rate and all the rest of it. know, red light therapy, cold plunges, saunas, PT sessions every other day, all that stuff. Because I’m like, I need to get better. Like I can’t, you know, yes, I can afford to take six months off, but my business can’t allow me to take six months off like this.
John Jantsch (18:31.97)
Mm-hmm.
John Jantsch (18:49.933)
Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (18:57.84)
And so it was really, really, really tough. But the things that I talk about in the book are real. Double downing on things like recovering and enjoying hobbies more, spending more time with the people that you love and you respect and want to be around a lot more, focusing on learning new things as well and understanding that in order to lead, you have to continue to learn. You have to. And then really just like the…
focus of working with the right people. That was the big change that I made coming back out from it was that I was done working with the wrong type of people. When I started looking at things a lot more granularly, I realized, that guy’s a pain in the butt to deal with. This group I don’t want to work with anymore and so on so on and so on. And we fired a whole bunch of clients, hired a whole bunch of new ones and rejigged a whole bunch of different stuff that we were doing program-wise, messaging-wise.
John Jantsch (19:54.307)
Mm-hmm.
@ChrisDucker (19:54.812)
marketing language wise, everything. So that was the big, you know, the kind of the big painful story that now I’m happy to say is, you know, we’re in a much better spot than we’ve ever been.
John Jantsch (20:07.374)
So one of the things that I think this long haul approach is, and you talk about it in the book, it takes a lot of transparency. people realize that you’re in the long haul if you’re, I think you even call it leading out loud. You share the good things, you share the bad things, you share where we’re going, get everybody on the same page. How, especially for a leader, that that might feel like, wait, we don’t do that, do we?
We don’t share the books. don’t, you know, I mean, how do you get somebody to realize the value in doing that?
@ChrisDucker (20:34.279)
Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (20:40.882)
Here’s the thing, I didn’t do it either. I didn’t do it. Now, I didn’t do it mostly because I’m a stupid man and we have idiot brains, you know, most of us, but I mean, I think some of it was down to pride. You know, I’m the patriarch of my family, what, four children and an amazing family and they look up to me for pretty much everything. And I love that most days, right? And…
think part of it was that. The other part very clearly was business because people were coming to me to know how to build their business with balance and their business with profitability and purpose built in. And here I am burning out like there’s something broken here and I can’t let them know that I’m going through this. So I had to kind of almost power through it in a way. And actually it was last year when we were hanging out in Nashville.
John Jantsch (21:33.144)
Yep. Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (21:39.11)
with each other. was sitting down when our time together had finished and myself and my buddy Pat Flynn were hanging out. he and our families are very, very close families. We spent a lot of time with each other. And I hadn’t even told him. And we’re talking three years after the fact, after I was diagnosed and put on meds and all the rest of it. And when I was telling him about it, finally face to face properly that we hadn’t seen each other since the pandemic, he started tearing up and he was just like,
John Jantsch (21:53.806)
Hmm. Hmm.
@ChrisDucker (22:08.448)
believe you went through all this without telling me. Like it’s awesome that you’re on the other side of it, but like, bro, you should have told me kind of thing. know, like this is messed up. We’re supposed to be friends. So I kept it in, John, kept it all in for those two main reasons. And I’ve hated myself for it. And when I started writing the book, really got into it at around the beginning of last year, it wrapped up. We wrapped the editing up in around September last year.
John Jantsch (22:10.638)
Yes.
John Jantsch (22:20.876)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (22:36.444)
But when I really got into the writing, was like, I can go two ways here. I can continue to kind of put a bit of a cloak and smoke and mirror style here in place and kind of just skate around the edges. Or I can really open the kimono up and just, you know, just, just, just be super vulnerable and, and just give it all, just put it all out there. And which is, that’s what I decided to do.
And the folks that I’ve spoken to about the book, are half a dozen or so folks that had like an advanced PDF version a few months back before we finalized everything. They were like, man, this is like, the fact that you’re doing this is huge because people in our industry just don’t do this. This has the opportunity of genuinely, like, hopefully changing some lives, like for real, not just business lives, but like lives, lives. And so I’m glad I made the decision to be a little bit more open about it all.
John Jantsch (23:30.222)
Well, awesome. Chris, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Anywhere you want to invite people to learn more about you, your work, obviously the long haul leader.
@ChrisDucker (23:38.728)
Yeah, I mean, if anybody does want to read the book, they can preorder it at longhaulleader.com. The official publication date is September 2. And if they preorder before that date, just send us a copy of your receipt. We’ll give you a load of bonuses. All the info is on that page. And if they want to connect on me, just chrisducker.com. Nice and easy.
John Jantsch (23:57.198)
Again, appreciate you dropping by and I look forward to seeing you in Nashville soon.
@ChrisDucker (24:03.91)
Yeah, right back at you, my friend.
John Jantsch (24:05.688)
Take care.
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Do This Instead: How to Adapt Your Marketing to the AI-Shaped Buyer Journey
Do This Instead: How to Adapt Your Marketing to the AI-Shaped Buyer Journey written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing
The Long-Haul Leader with Chris Ducker written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing
Overview
In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Chris Ducker, serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and founder of Youpreneur. Chris shares lessons from his new book, “The Long-Haul Leader: How to Lead and Win in the Long Game of Business,” and explains why sustainable success requires patience, consistency, self-care, and transparency. The conversation covers the power of personal “operating systems,” the value of creative hobbies, the importance of prioritizing recovery, and how vulnerability and leading out loud foster loyalty and real connection in business and life.
About the Guest
Chris Ducker is a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author, and founder of Youpreneur, a global personal brand business education company. Recognized for his candid, actionable advice on entrepreneurship and personal brand leadership, Chris has helped countless business owners scale and lead for the long haul. His books, “Rise of the Youpreneur” and “The Long-Haul Leader,” offer roadmaps for building sustainable businesses—and lives—rooted in clarity, community, and authenticity.
- Website: chrisducker.com
- Book: longhaulleader.com
Actionable Insights
- Short-term wins are loud, but true impact “whispers until it starts roaring”—sustainable success is built on patience, consistency, and showing up for the long haul.
- “Hustle” is a season, not a lifestyle. Lasting growth comes from intentional focus, recovery, and doing unflashy work behind the scenes.
- The Long-Haul Leader framework is built on four pillars: personal mastery, hobbies/pastimes, love/relationships, and impactful work—with balance and alignment at the core.
- Creative hobbies and prioritizing recovery boost productivity and satisfaction—entrepreneurs with hobbies are more successful at work.
- Measuring progress in these areas means tracking not just KPIs, but also personal growth, creative time, and meaningful relationships.
- Transparency and “leading out loud” build trust—sharing both wins and struggles creates stronger teams and connections.
- Reinvention is essential. Burnout and setbacks are part of the journey; prioritizing health, joy, and the right people is key to bouncing back.
Great Moments (with Timestamps)
- 01:22 – The Dangers of Short-Termism and the Power of the Long Game
Chris explains how patience and consistency outlast hustle culture for real business impact. - 05:02 – Focus Over Followers
Why clarity, intention, and saying “no” matter more than chasing every shiny object or platform. - 07:28 – The Operating System for Long-Haul Leadership
Chris introduces his four-part framework: personal mastery, hobbies, relationships, and impactful work. - 11:39 – Hobbies and Recovery Aren’t Optional
Research (and Chris’s own experience) show creative hobbies and recovery time dramatically improve performance. - 16:38 – The Power of Analog and Using Your Hands
How woodworking, painting, and hands-on hobbies can boost mental clarity and satisfaction. - 17:06 – Burnout and Reinvention
Chris shares his own story of hitting rock bottom, recovering, and reshaping his business and life. - 20:07 – Leading Out Loud: The Value of Vulnerability
Why openness, transparency, and sharing the journey matter for modern leadership. - 22:36 – Writing the Book as Memoir, Roadmap, and Call to Action
Chris describes how personal stories and practical frameworks combine to help others lead for the long haul.
Pulled Quotes
“Short-term wins are loud. Long-term impact whispers—until it starts roaring.”
— Chris Ducker
“Hustle is a season, not a lifestyle. Prioritizing recovery and the right people is the secret to lasting success.”
— Chris Ducker
John Jantsch (00:00.898)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duck Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch and my guest today is Chris Ducker. He’s a serial entrepreneur, bestselling author and founder of Youpnur, a global personal brand business education company. He’s recognized for his candid actionable advice on entrepreneurship, business growth and personal brand leadership. He’s been on this show before with a couple of his other books, For Sure Rise of the Youpnur, I think.
shaped countless business owners to scale and lead. And we’re going to talk about his latest book, The Long-Haul Leader, How to Lead and Win in the Long Game of Business. So Chris, welcome to the show.
@ChrisDucker (00:39.814)
Yeah, thanks for having me back, John. Appreciate it.
John Jantsch (00:41.666)
So serial entrepreneur, know, my mind goes to like Frosted Flakes or something, is there a favorite serial in the UK that we don’t have over here maybe?
@ChrisDucker (00:53.01)
Boy, I don’t know. That’s a really good question to kick off the chat. I’m pretty sure that we’ve got everything you’ve got and you’ve probably got about another gazillion other serials that we don’t have, I would think.
John Jantsch (01:06.359)
You’ve certainly got something dry and drier and tastelesser.
@ChrisDucker (01:11.784)
I was going say we generally don’t do cereal in our house. I think the last time I had a bowl of cereal, was probably something bland and boring like cornflakes or something like that.
John Jantsch (01:22.094)
Okay. All right. So in the book, you take on something you call short-termism, which I guess is obviously the opposite of the long haul. Was there a time in your business? mean, a lot of authors are really just writing like from the insights they’ve had over, you know, growing their own businesses. When did you realize the long game? Was it, did you have to be in the long game to realize the long game’s value?
@ChrisDucker (01:39.335)
Yep.
@ChrisDucker (01:50.024)
That’s a question. I think that I probably felt it initially, probably maybe 10 years or so ago when we opened up the doors to Uprenur. At that point, I’d already had two other businesses that were both doing very, very well indeed. Funnily enough, both those businesses we’ve now exited and sold over recent years. So the only business that we run now day to day is Uprenur.
And we’ve niched that down now to serve business authors and help them not only write and market their books and launch their books, but also to build businesses around their books and the frameworks that live within them. And that’s going really, really well right now as well. So I believe that when we opened up the doors to Upino, there was a lot of kind of membership sites out there teaching you how to market and your business and grow your business, become a creator and all that kind of stuff. But for me,
John Jantsch (02:29.976)
Mm-hmm.
@ChrisDucker (02:48.584)
I remember saying, this is going to be probably like the next 10, 15 years of my life, I think. Like I felt really quite positive and confident on that fact. And the the real reason here is that the other factor here is I think that ultimately, particularly as an entrepreneur, like we’re kind of conditioned to go after those quick wins, right? Those fast wins, those shiny object wins, as I call them, but
John Jantsch (03:09.432)
Mm-hmm.
@ChrisDucker (03:13.85)
If you think about how short-term wins are quite loud, you go for something, you grab them, you celebrate it in a loud way, the way I look at long-term impact is really it whispers and whispers and whispers until it starts roaring. I’m all about the roar at this point. The real game should be patience and consistency and showing up even when it’s not sexy, doing the un…
the unflashy work behind the scenes and all that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, I think there’s certainly something to be said for hustle, right? And hustle culture. There’s nothing wrong with a little hustle every now and then. And you will hustle anyway, just naturally by being a business owner, a deadline, a project that you want to get out the door by a certain date or something along those lines. But generally speaking, it’s not sustainable to be in that hustle mindset for too long. In fact, hustle, if you think about it, is a season.
It’s not a lifestyle. I talk about that in the book, obviously.
John Jantsch (04:10.254)
Yeah. But help me a little bit. mean, I get this. I’ve been doing this 30 years, you know, so I get, you know, what happens is you, you develop muscles and you develop memory and that helps you with the long game. Like every year in our business, February is a terrible month. And it must have something to do with, you know, the cycle of, of, know, what people do in business. You know, it’s like everybody wants to close the year and, you know, big time. And then there’s like kind of this exhale.
And so younger members of my team are like, leads are way down, know, business is way down. What are we going to do? And I’m like, it’s always this way. You know, just, just wait for March. It’ll be fine. You know, but, that until you’ve been through it 10 times, you know, it’s hard to have that mindset. So how does a, how does a younger entrepreneur in this case, develop that long-term mindset without kind of the, benefit of, you hindsight.
@ChrisDucker (04:45.869)
Yeah. Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (05:02.982)
Yeah, I think, you know, particularly the younger generation, my daughter, Chloe, as I know your daughter’s with your company, Chloe’s been with us now for six years. She’s our COO at Upanose. She’s amazing, but she’s also quite kind of KPI and kind of target focused and she wants to kind of chase down the next goal quite a bit. And I, you know, I always say that first and foremost, leadership in general, leading the game in whatever niche you’re in is not about being
John Jantsch (05:17.474)
Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (05:32.11)
everywhere. Genuinely, it’s not. It’s about being where it really matters. So you don’t have to worry about being on every platform, chasing down every goal, every verification badge that you can get and all that kind of stuff. It’s about choosing your presence with intention and working from a place of non-insecurity or no insecurity. The other thing is that
John Jantsch (05:33.409)
Mm-hmm.
@ChrisDucker (05:59.654)
I kind of like the idea. Like I’ve been saying this a lot recently, particularly to younger people. My son is 16 now and he’s, he’s a big music fan and he’s kind of creating his own music and he’s putting it up on Spotify and YouTube and all these kinds of places. And he gets like really, that I just hit 200 subscribers and you know, it just hit a thousand streams and all this kind of stuff. And I keep saying, look, you don’t need more followers. You don’t need more followers. You just need more focus, right? You’ve got to like focus on the clarity.
Don’t worry about constant content out, know, da, da, da, da, da, know, every available opportunity, like build that focus, knock out something really good on a weekly or a monthly basis. And the momentum will follow plain and simple. And so I think overall, the question is, yes, I can respect people want quick wins and they want to chase down those, those goals, but ultimately any kind of suggest or rather any kind of success that kind of, or suggest that you’re, you know,
have bad health because of it or family or start doing it from a place of non-committal joy. That’s pure sacrifice right there. That’s not success. I want my kids to be successful just like I want all my clients to be successful as well.
John Jantsch (07:13.518)
Well, before we get too much further in the show, the book is built, I mean, as all good books, you give people a, it’s not just a concept, here’s a framework. Here’s actually the steps to do it. So you want to kind of as high level as you want to go unpack what the steps are in the framework.
@ChrisDucker (07:22.482)
Yep.
@ChrisDucker (07:28.456)
Yeah. So when I first started writing the book, so this all came about out of 2021, we were in the middle of pandemic. I had a burnout, a pretty bad burnout. I was actually diagnosed with anxiety, depression, which I didn’t see coming at all. And I had phase three adrenal failure, which basically meant that my adrenal glands, which are two little glands that sit on top of your kidneys, they create cortisol, which is your stress hormone, right?
They flatlined, they weren’t creating any cortisol, so I couldn’t handle stress. And the more stress it got, the worse it got and so on and so on. So I had to take a period of time off and kind of recoup and relook at things. And I noticed when I was writing notes down, and I was doing this mostly for me at this point, not for the book, but whenever I was writing notes down or listening to a podcast or watching a video or whatever it was, talking to somebody, I noticed that the…
The notes I was taking, the things I was taking away from these discussions kept landing in four very, very distinct buckets. And they were hobbies and pastimes, which was a big one out of left field. It didn’t see that coming at all. It was love and relationships. It was personal mastery, so upgrading yourself, et cetera. And then the work that you do, right? And so I sat down and I kind of…
worked through this and looked at how we could put this into a framework when we actually started planning the book. And that’s what we did. We basically put it into this four step, if you imagine a bit of a Venn diagram, it’s the only image in the entire book. There’s one image in the whole book and this is it. And we’ve called it the long haul leader life OS or operating system. Because my mindset was, well, if our phones have got an OS, our computers have got an OS, why can’t we have an OS as well?
And so if you imagine where personal mastery and hobbies and pastimes kind of overlap, the time that we spend doing those things represents the balance that we have between our self-improvement and obviously the activities that we enjoy doing. Where hobbies and relationships and love clash, memories, right, the actual memories that we create, they reflect those meaningful
John Jantsch (09:26.488)
Mm.
@ChrisDucker (09:42.212)
experiences that we create, right, while we’re pursuing these passions and nurturing these relationships and whatnot. And then going further, where love and relationships and the work that we do, or impactful work, as I talk about it in the book, where those actually overlap, then what we’re talking about here is like, showing how meaningful work ultimately enables personal freedom, but also strengthens the relationships both at work and away from work as well. And then finally,
the personal mastery side of things and how that clashes and overlaps with the work that we do. This kind of like excites me a lot is it all comes down to the clients and they reflect the value and the influence that we generate from the people that we work with and how we apply our own expertise into our work. it’s a business book. And it’s interesting with my publisher, we have a pretty long drawn out discussion over like, how do we position this? Is it a leadership book? Is it a self-help book?
John Jantsch (10:36.536)
Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (10:40.186)
Is it personal development? it business? We ended up sticking it into a leadership category, but ultimately it’s a little bit of all of those things. And I’m kind of joking a little bit when I talk to friends about it, saying when it’s kind of part memoir, part roadmap, and that’s kind of where we’re going.
John Jantsch (10:56.142)
Well, I’ve always said that I think entrepreneurship is probably the ultimate personal development. Yeah, I mean, so, I mean, I think you could rightly call personal development or self-help even because I mean, regardless if you’re running a business, mean, almost everybody has those four areas at some level in their life, even if they’re working for a company.
@ChrisDucker (11:04.04)
it totally is. If you want to do it right.
@ChrisDucker (11:21.01)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (11:24.758)
All good frameworks come with a way to measure. Are we making progress? Are we setting the right priorities? How do you suggest, especially when you start getting into things like hobbies, as you’ve mentioned, mean, how do you measure like, I doing it right?
@ChrisDucker (11:39.27)
Yeah, the hobbies thing, like I said, came out of left field. I didn’t see this one coming. I, through the research that we did through the book, the people that were interviewed for the book and things like that, it was pretty apparent to me that those entrepreneurs, very specifically entrepreneurs, as well as C-suite executives and things like that, but mostly entrepreneurs that we talked to, those that had hobbies were a heck of a lot productive and more successful in their work compared to people that did not have hobbies.
John Jantsch (11:42.445)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (11:46.072)
me
John Jantsch (12:00.056)
Thanks.
@ChrisDucker (12:09.16)
I started looking into this even further and I found that creative hobbies, very specifically things like painting or anything to do with music and that kind of stuff. I’m a watercolour, nature watercolour. Yeah. And I also do bonsai as well, which is quite creative as well. Got to keep the things alive first and foremost. So the horticulture side of things comes in the play first. But yeah, so what we found with the creative hobbies was really interesting. So
John Jantsch (12:10.958)
Okay.
John Jantsch (12:16.426)
Mm-hmm. And I think you do painting, don’t you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
John Jantsch (12:29.069)
Yeah.
Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (12:39.036)
I went down a rabbit hole and I started looking at like, there any famous people that are like in corporate America, corporate world who have got like creative hobbies? There’s one guy we found, David Solomon, who is the CEO of Goldman Sachs. David Solomon is also known as DJ D Sol. And he is one of the most sought after dance DJs in America. Everything he makes, he gives to charity because he doesn’t need the money, obviously.
John Jantsch (12:45.26)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Jantsch (13:00.608)
funny.
@ChrisDucker (13:08.232)
But when you look at the statistic, and this came out of a Forbes survey, I believe, that if you engage in a creative hobby as an entrepreneur or a high level executive for a minimum of two hours a week, on average, you’re looking at about a 30 % boost on your performance at work, which is pretty telling. So the overall arching message here is go get a hobby and make it a creative one, ultimately.
John Jantsch (13:29.154)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (13:35.618)
I mean, did the research suggest why that is though? I mean, what does it rewire your brain? Is it like give you something else to think about? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
@ChrisDucker (13:39.24)
I think it comes down to prioritizing recovery fundamentally. It’s prioritizing recovery. And that is what I’ve personally seen as well in me stepping away from work more often. The work that I do now, Monday, because I don’t work Fridays, I haven’t worked Fridays for many, years. Monday to Friday, I work 10 a.m. to 4 p.m.
So it’s not a lot of time quote unquote in the office, but I am more productive than I ever have been. And I go out on nature walks almost every day. I’m very blessed to live in the countryside here in England. So I’m out and about on nature and everything pretty regularly become a little bit of a birdwatcher. Actually, I’m the guy walking around with a big lens now in the morning, just in case something cool pops out of a bush somewhere. But on a very serious note, have noticed unreservedly noticed that
John Jantsch (14:21.048)
Mm-hmm.
@ChrisDucker (14:32.912)
I feel more confident in the work that I’m doing. I get more done. I’m hitting my KPIs. My to-do lists disappear almost on a daily, if not definitely a weekly basis. And my team started the follow suit as well. So we’re now a no work Friday company. And everybody loves that, obviously, a four day work week. And there is just something about prioritizing your recovery that allows you to become better at what you do at work.
John Jantsch (14:58.03)
I wonder sometimes too, if people like us that have their hands on a keyboard a lot of days and we’re staring into virtual cameras. I wonder if there’s also something, if we want to go down another rabbit hole to doing a hobby that uses your hands, that is analog, that really gets you away from a computer screen completely. I actually enjoy woodworking. I build furniture and things. I always say that all the time. I mean, there’s something.
about holding this thing that used to be alive, you know, this tree that used to be alive. And I think there is something physical as well as mental about that.
@ChrisDucker (15:37.224)
I went to a conference, fair. was the Global Bird Fair just last weekend. I’ll show you something on camera here. So if you’re listening on audio, sorry, you’re going to miss this. But I bought this. This is a little nut hatch. Yeah. And I paid, think probably the equivalent of about $90 US for it. But I didn’t necessarily buy it because I wanted this to sit on my desk, although it does look pretty cool.
John Jantsch (15:49.513)
yeah, yeah, a little carved nut touch, yeah.
@ChrisDucker (16:06.128)
I bought it because after talking with the sculptor for 30 minutes, I was invested in the journey. I was invested in what he was all about. This guy was retired, mid seventies, does about five hours a day in his workshop, pretty much seven days a week. Loves what he does and travels the country selling his woodwork and making a little money after retirement. But it was the joy.
John Jantsch (16:13.037)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Jantsch (16:23.042)
Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (16:32.196)
in his face and his words when he spoke about doing what he did and what he loved. And there’s something to be said for that, you know?
John Jantsch (16:32.227)
haha
John Jantsch (16:38.798)
Yeah, 100%. Well, we could do a whole nother show on this. We better get back to another topic in the book that you cover a lot. And again, you use yourself, I think of stories of reinvention. there a particularly painful, people love painful stories, or is there a particularly painful one or maybe something that you got through because of maybe taking this long haul approach?
@ChrisDucker (16:43.549)
Ha
@ChrisDucker (17:06.408)
Well, I mean, it’s the burnout of 2021. know, that was, it was interesting because that year we had a phenomenal year business-wise. We made a whole bunch of money. We served probably well over 300 people within our UPINR programs, maybe even a little more actually. It was just a great year and all the work I was doing, like genuinely John, like I was loving it. Loving the work.
John Jantsch (17:08.492)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
@ChrisDucker (17:32.636)
love the people we’re working with, love doing the track, you know, everything that we were doing to kind of like, you know, turn up and train people and all the rest of it. was just a great year, but little did I know deep down, I was just wearing myself out further and further and further and further. And when you hit a rock bottom, like, like if you’d have asked me five, like seven, eight years ago, do you ever think you’ll be treated like clinically with drugs for depression, Chris? I would have called you mad, mad. Yeah. There I was.
John Jantsch (17:35.534)
you
John Jantsch (17:56.407)
Mmm, yeah.
@ChrisDucker (18:01.786)
on antidepressants for 18 months to bounce back from it. So it was very much a fish out of water situation for me. I didn’t really feel it coming all that much. And when it hit me, it hit me really, really, really hard. And I did what most kind of quite addictive personality type people do. And I kind of went all in on it. And I, you know, I went down, I went down the nutrition route, the
the whole kind of biohacking route. did a whole bunch of blood work. I started wearing a wearable to track everything from sleep and recovery and the heart rate and all the rest of it. know, red light therapy, cold plunges, saunas, PT sessions every other day, all that stuff. Because I’m like, I need to get better. Like I can’t, you know, yes, I can afford to take six months off, but my business can’t allow me to take six months off like this.
John Jantsch (18:31.97)
Mm-hmm.
John Jantsch (18:49.933)
Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (18:57.84)
And so it was really, really, really tough. But the things that I talk about in the book are real. Double downing on things like recovering and enjoying hobbies more, spending more time with the people that you love and you respect and want to be around a lot more, focusing on learning new things as well and understanding that in order to lead, you have to continue to learn. You have to. And then really just like the…
focus of working with the right people. That was the big change that I made coming back out from it was that I was done working with the wrong type of people. When I started looking at things a lot more granularly, I realized, that guy’s a pain in the butt to deal with. This group I don’t want to work with anymore and so on so on and so on. And we fired a whole bunch of clients, hired a whole bunch of new ones and rejigged a whole bunch of different stuff that we were doing program-wise, messaging-wise.
John Jantsch (19:54.307)
Mm-hmm.
@ChrisDucker (19:54.812)
marketing language wise, everything. So that was the big, you know, the kind of the big painful story that now I’m happy to say is, you know, we’re in a much better spot than we’ve ever been.
John Jantsch (20:07.374)
So one of the things that I think this long haul approach is, and you talk about it in the book, it takes a lot of transparency. people realize that you’re in the long haul if you’re, I think you even call it leading out loud. You share the good things, you share the bad things, you share where we’re going, get everybody on the same page. How, especially for a leader, that that might feel like, wait, we don’t do that, do we?
We don’t share the books. don’t, you know, I mean, how do you get somebody to realize the value in doing that?
@ChrisDucker (20:34.279)
Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (20:40.882)
Here’s the thing, I didn’t do it either. I didn’t do it. Now, I didn’t do it mostly because I’m a stupid man and we have idiot brains, you know, most of us, but I mean, I think some of it was down to pride. You know, I’m the patriarch of my family, what, four children and an amazing family and they look up to me for pretty much everything. And I love that most days, right? And…
think part of it was that. The other part very clearly was business because people were coming to me to know how to build their business with balance and their business with profitability and purpose built in. And here I am burning out like there’s something broken here and I can’t let them know that I’m going through this. So I had to kind of almost power through it in a way. And actually it was last year when we were hanging out in Nashville.
John Jantsch (21:33.144)
Yep. Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (21:39.11)
with each other. was sitting down when our time together had finished and myself and my buddy Pat Flynn were hanging out. he and our families are very, very close families. We spent a lot of time with each other. And I hadn’t even told him. And we’re talking three years after the fact, after I was diagnosed and put on meds and all the rest of it. And when I was telling him about it, finally face to face properly that we hadn’t seen each other since the pandemic, he started tearing up and he was just like,
John Jantsch (21:53.806)
Hmm. Hmm.
@ChrisDucker (22:08.448)
believe you went through all this without telling me. Like it’s awesome that you’re on the other side of it, but like, bro, you should have told me kind of thing. know, like this is messed up. We’re supposed to be friends. So I kept it in, John, kept it all in for those two main reasons. And I’ve hated myself for it. And when I started writing the book, really got into it at around the beginning of last year, it wrapped up. We wrapped the editing up in around September last year.
John Jantsch (22:10.638)
Yes.
John Jantsch (22:20.876)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
@ChrisDucker (22:36.444)
But when I really got into the writing, was like, I can go two ways here. I can continue to kind of put a bit of a cloak and smoke and mirror style here in place and kind of just skate around the edges. Or I can really open the kimono up and just, you know, just, just, just be super vulnerable and, and just give it all, just put it all out there. And which is, that’s what I decided to do.
And the folks that I’ve spoken to about the book, are half a dozen or so folks that had like an advanced PDF version a few months back before we finalized everything. They were like, man, this is like, the fact that you’re doing this is huge because people in our industry just don’t do this. This has the opportunity of genuinely, like, hopefully changing some lives, like for real, not just business lives, but like lives, lives. And so I’m glad I made the decision to be a little bit more open about it all.
John Jantsch (23:30.222)
Well, awesome. Chris, I appreciate you taking a few moments to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. Anywhere you want to invite people to learn more about you, your work, obviously the long haul leader.
@ChrisDucker (23:38.728)
Yeah, I mean, if anybody does want to read the book, they can preorder it at longhaulleader.com. The official publication date is September 2. And if they preorder before that date, just send us a copy of your receipt. We’ll give you a load of bonuses. All the info is on that page. And if they want to connect on me, just chrisducker.com. Nice and easy.
John Jantsch (23:57.198)
Again, appreciate you dropping by and I look forward to seeing you in Nashville soon.
@ChrisDucker (24:03.91)
Yeah, right back at you, my friend.
John Jantsch (24:05.688)
Take care.
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Every Adaptation of the Fantastic Four Ranked
The Fantastic Four is such a staple in Marvel, superhero fiction, and really just pop culture in general that it feels insane how much hope there was that the MCU’s The Fantastic Four: First Steps would be the one to do it justice. It feels so odd that these characters have seldom stood out in […]
The post Every Adaptation of the Fantastic Four Ranked appeared first on Den of Geek.
The modern gaming landscape is filled with big stories and bigger ideas. Many AAA gaming titles are as packed with lore as a Homeric epic. Hell, FromSoftware even brought in Game of Thrones creator George R.R. Martin to fill out the expansive narrative corners of Elden Ring‘s the Lands Between! That was not always the case, however.
The concept of “lore” was not frequently a consideration for ’90s and ’00s games which were primarily concerned with generating a satisfying gameplay experience through primitive graphics. And yet, gamers came to respect and cherish these titles’ meager canon anyway. There’s no better example of this phenomenon than Sony’s vehicular combat series Twisted Metal. Amid all the carnage of Calypso’s demolition derby, certain characters, weapons, locations, and even themes began to emerge.
cnx({
playerId: “106e33c0-3911-473c-b599-b1426db57530”,
}).render(“0270c398a82f44f49c23c16122516796”);
});
Peacock TV series adaptation Twisted Metal got to pay homage to that unlikely mythology in its first season. Now the second season is poised to dig even deeper into the history of the games. Showrunner Michael Jonathan Smith and stars Anthony Mackie (John Doe), Stephanie Beatriz (Quiet), Joe Seanoa (Sweet Tooth), and Anthony Carrigan (Calypso) stopped by Den of Geek Studio at San Diego Comic-Con to tease what’s to come.
“The lore is so unhinged. It’s just crazy,” showrunner Smith says of the Twisted Metal franchise. “We have dockets in the writers’ room that is so thick of all the weapons and levels to make sure we have all those Easter eggs so fans can ‘Leonardo DiCaprio [pointing] meme’ the screen at all times. It’s always so fun to include that stuff.”
Per Smith, the Leonardo DiCaprio pointing meme material this time around will include some surprising references to one of the story’s most beloved characters.
“We included some Axel lore that is so nuts. If you’re really deep in the Twisted Metal lore and you see what we included from Axel’s backstory ,you’ll be like ‘I cannot believe that the Twisted Metal creators and writers included this stuff.’ It’s so deep and it’s so insane how we included it.”
While Twisted Metal‘s first season was able to introduce plenty of familiar faces from the game, including the iconic conflagratory clown Sweet Tooth (played by Joe Seanoa and voiced by Will Arnett), season two fully reveals the man behind the demolition derby curtain. Calypso, played by Anthony Carrigan (a.k.a. Noho Hank in Barry and Metamorpho in this summer’s Superman) is a wonderfully deranged dandy who fits the Twisted Metal universe as comfortably as his preposterous wig fits his head.
“Honestly the wig does all the acting. I take very little credit, it’s all the hair,” Carrigan jokes. “The blueprint of the character was there but we were able to collaborate and have fun. I took a lot of liberties, I’m gonna say. A lot of liberties. But I think the whole vibe of the cast just really likes to have fun – push the envelope and have a good time.”
“It’s a testament to you, dude,” Mackie adds to Carrigan. “A regular actor would have came in, not taken risks, not pushed the envelope, and just stood there and said the lines. But all the weird shit came from you. You went full weird. It was beautiful to see. It was like ‘oh what’s this dude gonna be’ and then you’d be on set and hear [INDESCRIBABLE HAUNTING LAUGH].”
The flexible format of the show’s premise also allows for Twisted Metal to experiment with some new characters as well, including the introduction of one particular post-apocalyptic heavy who is so revolting that this interviewer begged Smith for an apology.
“When we broke the idea of Big Baby, I explained it to my wife and she was like ‘I hate Big Baby,’” Smith says. “She was really mad at me that we came up with it. She told me to cut Big Baby and I said ‘Big Baby stays, honey. It’s Big Baby or me.’”
We appreciate the effort to cancel Big Baby anyway, Nan.
The first three episodes of Twisted Metal season 2 premiere Thursday, July 31 on Peacock. New episodes premiere Thursdays culminating with the finale on August 28.
The post Twisted Metal Season 2 Will Include Deep Lore For a Beloved Game Character appeared first on Den of Geek.
Twisted Metal Season 2 Will Include Deep Lore For a Beloved Game Character
The modern gaming landscape is filled with big stories and bigger ideas. Many AAA gaming titles are as packed with lore as a Homeric epic. Hell, FromSoftware even brought in Game of Thrones creator George R.R. Martin to fill out the expansive narrative corners of Elden Ring‘s the Lands Between! That was not always the […]
The post Twisted Metal Season 2 Will Include Deep Lore For a Beloved Game Character appeared first on Den of Geek.
The modern gaming landscape is filled with big stories and bigger ideas. Many AAA gaming titles are as packed with lore as a Homeric epic. Hell, FromSoftware even brought in Game of Thrones creator George R.R. Martin to fill out the expansive narrative corners of Elden Ring‘s the Lands Between! That was not always the case, however.
The concept of “lore” was not frequently a consideration for ’90s and ’00s games which were primarily concerned with generating a satisfying gameplay experience through primitive graphics. And yet, gamers came to respect and cherish these titles’ meager canon anyway. There’s no better example of this phenomenon than Sony’s vehicular combat series Twisted Metal. Amid all the carnage of Calypso’s demolition derby, certain characters, weapons, locations, and even themes began to emerge.
cnx({
playerId: “106e33c0-3911-473c-b599-b1426db57530”,
}).render(“0270c398a82f44f49c23c16122516796”);
});
Peacock TV series adaptation Twisted Metal got to pay homage to that unlikely mythology in its first season. Now the second season is poised to dig even deeper into the history of the games. Showrunner Michael Jonathan Smith and stars Anthony Mackie (John Doe), Stephanie Beatriz (Quiet), Joe Seanoa (Sweet Tooth), and Anthony Carrigan (Calypso) stopped by Den of Geek Studio at San Diego Comic-Con to tease what’s to come.
“The lore is so unhinged. It’s just crazy,” showrunner Smith says of the Twisted Metal franchise. “We have dockets in the writers’ room that is so thick of all the weapons and levels to make sure we have all those Easter eggs so fans can ‘Leonardo DiCaprio [pointing] meme’ the screen at all times. It’s always so fun to include that stuff.”
Per Smith, the Leonardo DiCaprio pointing meme material this time around will include some surprising references to one of the story’s most beloved characters.
“We included some Axel lore that is so nuts. If you’re really deep in the Twisted Metal lore and you see what we included from Axel’s backstory ,you’ll be like ‘I cannot believe that the Twisted Metal creators and writers included this stuff.’ It’s so deep and it’s so insane how we included it.”
While Twisted Metal‘s first season was able to introduce plenty of familiar faces from the game, including the iconic conflagratory clown Sweet Tooth (played by Joe Seanoa and voiced by Will Arnett), season two fully reveals the man behind the demolition derby curtain. Calypso, played by Anthony Carrigan (a.k.a. Noho Hank in Barry and Metamorpho in this summer’s Superman) is a wonderfully deranged dandy who fits the Twisted Metal universe as comfortably as his preposterous wig fits his head.
“Honestly the wig does all the acting. I take very little credit, it’s all the hair,” Carrigan jokes. “The blueprint of the character was there but we were able to collaborate and have fun. I took a lot of liberties, I’m gonna say. A lot of liberties. But I think the whole vibe of the cast just really likes to have fun – push the envelope and have a good time.”
“It’s a testament to you, dude,” Mackie adds to Carrigan. “A regular actor would have came in, not taken risks, not pushed the envelope, and just stood there and said the lines. But all the weird shit came from you. You went full weird. It was beautiful to see. It was like ‘oh what’s this dude gonna be’ and then you’d be on set and hear [INDESCRIBABLE HAUNTING LAUGH].”
The flexible format of the show’s premise also allows for Twisted Metal to experiment with some new characters as well, including the introduction of one particular post-apocalyptic heavy who is so revolting that this interviewer begged Smith for an apology.
“When we broke the idea of Big Baby, I explained it to my wife and she was like ‘I hate Big Baby,’” Smith says. “She was really mad at me that we came up with it. She told me to cut Big Baby and I said ‘Big Baby stays, honey. It’s Big Baby or me.’”
We appreciate the effort to cancel Big Baby anyway, Nan.
The first three episodes of Twisted Metal season 2 premiere Thursday, July 31 on Peacock. New episodes premiere Thursdays culminating with the finale on August 28.
The post Twisted Metal Season 2 Will Include Deep Lore For a Beloved Game Character appeared first on Den of Geek.
How Israel’s Strikes Avert Iran’s Environmental Threat
Natanz Nuclear Facility after Israeli strikes When Israel launched a surprise, precision strike wave against Iran’s nuclear and other essential infrastructure on June 13, 2025, the world’s attention turned not only to the military, political, and human fallout but also to the environmental risks. Iran and its leaders immediately accused Israel of committing environmental war […]
The post How Israel’s Strikes Avert Iran’s Environmental Threat appeared first on Green Prophet.
Natanz Nuclear Facility after Israeli strikes
When Israel launched a surprise, precision strike wave against Iran’s nuclear and other essential infrastructure on June 13, 2025, the world’s attention turned not only to the military, political, and human fallout but also to the environmental risks. Iran and its leaders immediately accused Israel of committing environmental war crimes. The supporting evidence for this claim was fires at oil depots, fuel deposits being damaged, and the targeting of nuclear research and development facilities. From Israel’s perspective, these accusations are just distractions and diversions to ignore a larger truth: Iran’s pursuit of nuclear weapons poses a larger and longer-lasting environmental threat to the Middle East than Israel’s defensive measures ever will.
Israel has long believed and employed the practice of stopping existential threats before they come to fruition. This doctrine led Israel to conduct strikes, similar to its 2025 attack, on nuclear facilities in Iraq in 1981 and Syria in 2007. While both operations were controversial at the same time, which seems to be the trend with Israel’s attacks, they are now acknowledged to have prevented potentially worse, specifically environmental, outcomes. In June 2025, Israel used the same logic when it attacked Iran. Nuclear facilities in Natanz, Fordow, and Arak, among other infrastructure, where uranium enrichment along with other nuclear activities were targeted. Israel’s goal was clear: cripple Iran’s nuclear program before it had operational weapons. For Israeli leaders, the alternative to not attacking was unthinkable. An Iran with nuclear capabilities would not only destabilize regional politics but also risk a major humanitarian and environmental disaster.
See Related Article: Experts at US-Arab Policy Conference debate Mideast’s future as global energy supplier
Critics of the attack warned and cited instances of radioactive leaks. However, agencies like the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) confirmed the lack of leaks and are also continuing to measure sites to ensure no radioactive increase. Chemical exposure is the real environmental danger. Chemicals used in enrichment that are not cared for and stored properly can become toxic and can potentially be inhaled or contaminate groundwater. The underground nature of Iran’s nuclear development facilities helped decrease the chance of air exposure. Additionally, Israeli military planners deliberately designed strikes to maximize damage to infrastructure and minimize environmental fallout. Israel’s precision proves that Israel recognizes environmental safety even amid war.
Israeli Air Force Jets
Iran’s environmental department has accused Israel of targeting fossil-fuel storage, oil depots, industrial plants, and nuclear facilities with the intention of causing environmental destruction. Tehran’s state media highlighted fires at oil depots and refineries, claiming that the attacks and subsequent destruction created toxic air and soil contamination. Israel rejects these accusations. Its view is that the strikes were carefully planned and carried out with precision to undermine Iran’s economic, military, and nuclear programs. By crippling key infrastructure, Israel seeks to cut off financial and physical resources as well as the support they provide for Iran’s proxies. From Israel’s perspective, Iran is attempting to weaponize environmental justice as propaganda while ignoring the larger risks that they are creating by their national ambitions.
See Related Article: Iran is sinking in sinkholes from overwatering
While Iran points towards oil fires and chemical leaks, Israel argues that the long-term environmental risks of a nuclear Iran far outweigh the immediate impact of its targeted strikes. Consider the following situations:
- Nuclear accident: Poorly secured and contained enrichment facilities could leak uranium into soil, water, and other resources
- Regional proliferation: If Iran secures nuclear weapons, other nations in the region may pursue their programs in response, exponentially increasing the risk of accident and sabotage
- Terrorist access: With Iranian proxies active across the Middle East, material or weapons could fall into the hands of groups with no regard for environmental or human safety
- Regional instability: A nuclear Iran would increase the likelihood of war, where nuclear attacks would devastate the environment
For Israel, these risks make preventative action not only the way to save human life but also to save the environment from potential destruction.
Iranian Missiles
Iran’s accusations of environmental war crimes fit into a broader narrative attempting to portray Israel as reckless and destructive. But Israel points out key hypocrisies. Iran’s secrecy, blocking inspectors from accessing facilities, Iran’s industrial pollution, and their weaponization of outrage shift their malpractice onto Israel.
Israel frames its strategy around an ethical argument: to allow Iran to continue unchecked would not only be a gamble in terms of Israeli lives but also with the environmental health of the Middle East as a whole.
The strikes on Iran have sparked fierce debate, but from Israel’s perspective, the choice was easy: either accept the risks of a nuclear Iran or act decisively to stop it.
Israel chose action, not out of disregard for the environment, but because it views preventive strikes as the lesser of two ecological evils. The immediate damage pales in comparison to the devastation a nuclearized Iran could unleash.
For Israel, protecting the land, air, and water of the Middle East means ensuring that a nuclear catastrophe never becomes part of the region’s future.
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