To Ignite a Personalization Practice, Run this Prepersonalization Workshop
Picture this. You’ve joined a squad at your company that’s designing new product features with an emphasis on automation or AI. Or your company has just implemented a personalization engine. Either way, you’re designing with data. Now what? When it comes to designing for personalization, there are many cautionary tales, no overnight successes, and few guides for the perplexed.
Between the fantasy of getting it right and the fear of it going wrong—like when we encounter “persofails” in the vein of a company repeatedly imploring everyday consumers to buy additional toilet seats—the personalization gap is real. It’s an especially confounding place to be a digital professional without a map, a compass, or a plan.
For those of you venturing into personalization, there’s no Lonely Planet and few tour guides because effective personalization is so specific to each organization’s talent, technology, and market position.
But you can ensure that your team has packed its bags sensibly.
There’s a DIY formula to increase your chances for success. At minimum, you’ll defuse your boss’s irrational exuberance. Before the party you’ll need to effectively prepare.
We call it prepersonalization.
Behind the music
Consider Spotify’s DJ feature, which debuted this past year.
We’re used to seeing the polished final result of a personalization feature. Before the year-end award, the making-of backstory, or the behind-the-scenes victory lap, a personalized feature had to be conceived, budgeted, and prioritized. Before any personalization feature goes live in your product or service, it lives amid a backlog of worthy ideas for expressing customer experiences more dynamically.
So how do you know where to place your personalization bets? How do you design consistent interactions that won’t trip up users or—worse—breed mistrust? We’ve found that for many budgeted programs to justify their ongoing investments, they first needed one or more workshops to convene key stakeholders and internal customers of the technology. Make yours count.
From Big Tech to fledgling startups, we’ve seen the same evolution up close with our clients. In our experiences with working on small and large personalization efforts, a program’s ultimate track record—and its ability to weather tough questions, work steadily toward shared answers, and organize its design and technology efforts—turns on how effectively these prepersonalization activities play out.
Time and again, we’ve seen effective workshops separate future success stories from unsuccessful efforts, saving countless time, resources, and collective well-being in the process.
A personalization practice involves a multiyear effort of testing and feature development. It’s not a switch-flip moment in your tech stack. It’s best managed as a backlog that often evolves through three steps:
- customer experience optimization (CXO, also known as A/B testing or experimentation)
- always-on automations (whether rules-based or machine-generated)
- mature features or standalone product development (such as Spotify’s DJ experience)
This is why we created our progressive personalization framework and why we’re field-testing an accompanying deck of cards: we believe that there’s a base grammar, a set of “nouns and verbs” that your organization can use to design experiences that are customized, personalized, or automated. You won’t need these cards. But we strongly recommend that you create something similar, whether that might be digital or physical.
Set your kitchen timer
How long does it take to cook up a prepersonalization workshop? The surrounding assessment activities that we recommend including can (and often do) span weeks. For the core workshop, we recommend aiming for two to three days. Here’s a summary of our broader approach along with details on the essential first-day activities.
The full arc of the wider workshop is threefold:
- Kickstart: This sets the terms of engagement as you focus on the opportunity as well as the readiness and drive of your team and your leadership. .
- Plan your work: This is the heart of the card-based workshop activities where you specify a plan of attack and the scope of work.
- Work your plan: This phase is all about creating a competitive environment for team participants to individually pitch their own pilots that each contain a proof-of-concept project, its business case, and its operating model.
Give yourself at least a day, split into two large time blocks, to power through a concentrated version of those first two phases.
Kickstart: Whet your appetite
We call the first lesson the “landscape of connected experience.” It explores the personalization possibilities in your organization. A connected experience, in our parlance, is any UX requiring the orchestration of multiple systems of record on the backend. This could be a content-management system combined with a marketing-automation platform. It could be a digital-asset manager combined with a customer-data platform.
Spark conversation by naming consumer examples and business-to-business examples of connected experience interactions that you admire, find familiar, or even dislike. This should cover a representative range of personalization patterns, including automated app-based interactions (such as onboarding sequences or wizards), notifications, and recommenders. We have a catalog of these in the cards. Here’s a list of 142 different interactions to jog your thinking.
This is all about setting the table. What are the possible paths for the practice in your organization? If you want a broader view, here’s a long-form primer and a strategic framework.
Assess each example that you discuss for its complexity and the level of effort that you estimate that it would take for your team to deliver that feature (or something similar). In our cards, we divide connected experiences into five levels: functions, features, experiences, complete products, and portfolios. Size your own build here. This will help to focus the conversation on the merits of ongoing investment as well as the gap between what you deliver today and what you want to deliver in the future.
Next, have your team plot each idea on the following 2×2 grid, which lays out the four enduring arguments for a personalized experience. This is critical because it emphasizes how personalization can not only help your external customers but also affect your own ways of working. It’s also a reminder (which is why we used the word argument earlier) of the broader effort beyond these tactical interventions.
Each team member should vote on where they see your product or service putting its emphasis. Naturally, you can’t prioritize all of them. The intention here is to flesh out how different departments may view their own upsides to the effort, which can vary from one to the next. Documenting your desired outcomes lets you know how the team internally aligns across representatives from different departments or functional areas.
The third and final kickstart activity is about naming your personalization gap. Is your customer journey well documented? Will data and privacy compliance be too big of a challenge? Do you have content metadata needs that you have to address? (We’re pretty sure that you do: it’s just a matter of recognizing the relative size of that need and its remedy.) In our cards, we’ve noted a number of program risks, including common team dispositions. Our Detractor card, for example, lists six stakeholder behaviors that hinder progress.
Effectively collaborating and managing expectations is critical to your success. Consider the potential barriers to your future progress. Press the participants to name specific steps to overcome or mitigate those barriers in your organization. As studies have shown, personalization efforts face many common barriers.
At this point, you’ve hopefully discussed sample interactions, emphasized a key area of benefit, and flagged key gaps? Good—you’re ready to continue.
Hit that test kitchen
Next, let’s look at what you’ll need to bring your personalization recipes to life. Personalization engines, which are robust software suites for automating and expressing dynamic content, can intimidate new customers. Their capabilities are sweeping and powerful, and they present broad options for how your organization can conduct its activities. This presents the question: Where do you begin when you’re configuring a connected experience?
What’s important here is to avoid treating the installed software like it were a dream kitchen from some fantasy remodeling project (as one of our client executives memorably put it). These software engines are more like test kitchens where your team can begin devising, tasting, and refining the snacks and meals that will become a part of your personalization program’s regularly evolving menu.
The ultimate menu of the prioritized backlog will come together over the course of the workshop. And creating “dishes” is the way that you’ll have individual team stakeholders construct personalized interactions that serve their needs or the needs of others.
The dishes will come from recipes, and those recipes have set ingredients.
Verify your ingredients
Like a good product manager, you’ll make sure—andyou’ll validate with the right stakeholders present—that you have all the ingredients on hand to cook up your desired interaction (or that you can work out what needs to be added to your pantry). These ingredients include the audience that you’re targeting, content and design elements, the context for the interaction, and your measure for how it’ll come together.
This isn’t just about discovering requirements. Documenting your personalizations as a series of if-then statements lets the team:
- compare findings toward a unified approach for developing features, not unlike when artists paint with the same palette;
- specify a consistent set of interactions that users find uniform or familiar;
- and develop parity across performance measurements and key performance indicators too.
This helps you streamline your designs and your technical efforts while you deliver a shared palette of core motifs of your personalized or automated experience.
Compose your recipe
What ingredients are important to you? Think of a who-what-when-why construct:
- Who are your key audience segments or groups?
- What kind of content will you give them, in what design elements, and under what circumstances?
- And for which business and user benefits?
We first developed these cards and card categories five years ago. We regularly play-test their fit with conference audiences and clients. And we still encounter new possibilities. But they all follow an underlying who-what-when-why logic.
Here are three examples for a subscription-based reading app, which you can generally follow along with right to left in the cards in the accompanying photo below.
- Nurture personalization: When a guest or an unknown visitor interacts with a product title, a banner or alert bar appears that makes it easier for them to encounter a related title they may want to read, saving them time.
- Welcome automation: When there’s a newly registered user, an email is generated to call out the breadth of the content catalog and to make them a happier subscriber.
- Winback automation: Before their subscription lapses or after a recent failed renewal, a user is sent an email that gives them a promotional offer to suggest that they reconsider renewing or to remind them to renew.
A useful preworkshop activity may be to think through a first draft of what these cards might be for your organization, although we’ve also found that this process sometimes flows best through cocreating the recipes themselves. Start with a set of blank cards, and begin labeling and grouping them through the design process, eventually distilling them to a refined subset of highly useful candidate cards.
You can think of the later stages of the workshop as moving from recipes toward a cookbook in focus—like a more nuanced customer-journey mapping. Individual “cooks” will pitch their recipes to the team, using a common jobs-to-be-done format so that measurability and results are baked in, and from there, the resulting collection will be prioritized for finished design and delivery to production.
Better kitchens require better architecture
Simplifying a customer experience is a complicated effort for those who are inside delivering it. Beware anyone who says otherwise. With that being said, “Complicated problems can be hard to solve, but they are addressable with rules and recipes.”
When personalization becomes a laugh line, it’s because a team is overfitting: they aren’t designing with their best data. Like a sparse pantry, every organization has metadata debt to go along with its technical debt, and this creates a drag on personalization effectiveness. Your AI’s output quality, for example, is indeed limited by your IA. Spotify’s poster-child prowess today was unfathomable before they acquired a seemingly modest metadata startup that now powers its underlying information architecture.
You can definitely stand the heat…
Personalization technology opens a doorway into a confounding ocean of possible designs. Only a disciplined and highly collaborative approach will bring about the necessary focus and intention to succeed. So banish the dream kitchen. Instead, hit the test kitchen to save time, preserve job satisfaction and security, and safely dispense with the fanciful ideas that originate upstairs of the doers in your organization. There are meals to serve and mouths to feed.
This workshop framework gives you a fighting shot at lasting success as well as sound beginnings. Wiring up your information layer isn’t an overnight affair. But if you use the same cookbook and shared recipes, you’ll have solid footing for success. We designed these activities to make your organization’s needs concrete and clear, long before the hazards pile up.
While there are associated costs toward investing in this kind of technology and product design, your ability to size up and confront your unique situation and your digital capabilities is time well spent. Don’t squander it. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.
User Research Is Storytelling
Ever since I was a boy, I’ve been fascinated with movies. I loved the characters and the excitement—but most of all the stories. I wanted to be an actor. And I believed that I’d get to do the things that Indiana Jones did and go on exciting adventures. I even dreamed up ideas for movies that my friends and I could make and star in. But they never went any further. I did, however, end up working in user experience (UX). Now, I realize that there’s an element of theater to UX—I hadn’t really considered it before, but user research is storytelling. And to get the most out of user research, you need to tell a good story where you bring stakeholders—the product team and decision makers—along and get them interested in learning more.
Think of your favorite movie. More than likely it follows a three-act structure that’s commonly seen in storytelling: the setup, the conflict, and the resolution. The first act shows what exists today, and it helps you get to know the characters and the challenges and problems that they face. Act two introduces the conflict, where the action is. Here, problems grow or get worse. And the third and final act is the resolution. This is where the issues are resolved and the characters learn and change. I believe that this structure is also a great way to think about user research, and I think that it can be especially helpful in explaining user research to others.
Use storytelling as a structure to do research
It’s sad to say, but many have come to see research as being expendable. If budgets or timelines are tight, research tends to be one of the first things to go. Instead of investing in research, some product managers rely on designers or—worse—their own opinion to make the “right” choices for users based on their experience or accepted best practices. That may get teams some of the way, but that approach can so easily miss out on solving users’ real problems. To remain user-centered, this is something we should avoid. User research elevates design. It keeps it on track, pointing to problems and opportunities. Being aware of the issues with your product and reacting to them can help you stay ahead of your competitors.
In the three-act structure, each act corresponds to a part of the process, and each part is critical to telling the whole story. Let’s look at the different acts and how they align with user research.
Act one: setup
The setup is all about understanding the background, and that’s where foundational research comes in. Foundational research (also called generative, discovery, or initial research) helps you understand users and identify their problems. You’re learning about what exists today, the challenges users have, and how the challenges affect them—just like in the movies. To do foundational research, you can conduct contextual inquiries or diary studies (or both!), which can help you start to identify problems as well as opportunities. It doesn’t need to be a huge investment in time or money.
Erika Hall writes about minimum viable ethnography, which can be as simple as spending 15 minutes with a user and asking them one thing: “‘Walk me through your day yesterday.’ That’s it. Present that one request. Shut up and listen to them for 15 minutes. Do your damndest to keep yourself and your interests out of it. Bam, you’re doing ethnography.” According to Hall, “[This] will probably prove quite illuminating. In the highly unlikely case that you didn’t learn anything new or useful, carry on with enhanced confidence in your direction.”
This makes total sense to me. And I love that this makes user research so accessible. You don’t need to prepare a lot of documentation; you can just recruit participants and do it! This can yield a wealth of information about your users, and it’ll help you better understand them and what’s going on in their lives. That’s really what act one is all about: understanding where users are coming from.
Jared Spool talks about the importance of foundational research and how it should form the bulk of your research. If you can draw from any additional user data that you can get your hands on, such as surveys or analytics, that can supplement what you’ve heard in the foundational studies or even point to areas that need further investigation. Together, all this data paints a clearer picture of the state of things and all its shortcomings. And that’s the beginning of a compelling story. It’s the point in the plot where you realize that the main characters—or the users in this case—are facing challenges that they need to overcome. Like in the movies, this is where you start to build empathy for the characters and root for them to succeed. And hopefully stakeholders are now doing the same. Their sympathy may be with their business, which could be losing money because users can’t complete certain tasks. Or maybe they do empathize with users’ struggles. Either way, act one is your initial hook to get the stakeholders interested and invested.
Once stakeholders begin to understand the value of foundational research, that can open doors to more opportunities that involve users in the decision-making process. And that can guide product teams toward being more user-centered. This benefits everyone—users, the product, and stakeholders. It’s like winning an Oscar in movie terms—it often leads to your product being well received and successful. And this can be an incentive for stakeholders to repeat this process with other products. Storytelling is the key to this process, and knowing how to tell a good story is the only way to get stakeholders to really care about doing more research.
This brings us to act two, where you iteratively evaluate a design or concept to see whether it addresses the issues.
Act two: conflict
Act two is all about digging deeper into the problems that you identified in act one. This usually involves directional research, such as usability tests, where you assess a potential solution (such as a design) to see whether it addresses the issues that you found. The issues could include unmet needs or problems with a flow or process that’s tripping users up. Like act two in a movie, more issues will crop up along the way. It’s here that you learn more about the characters as they grow and develop through this act.
Usability tests should typically include around five participants according to Jakob Nielsen, who found that that number of users can usually identify most of the problems: “As you add more and more users, you learn less and less because you will keep seeing the same things again and again… After the fifth user, you are wasting your time by observing the same findings repeatedly but not learning much new.”
There are parallels with storytelling here too; if you try to tell a story with too many characters, the plot may get lost. Having fewer participants means that each user’s struggles will be more memorable and easier to relay to other stakeholders when talking about the research. This can help convey the issues that need to be addressed while also highlighting the value of doing the research in the first place.
Researchers have run usability tests in person for decades, but you can also conduct usability tests remotely using tools like Microsoft Teams, Zoom, or other teleconferencing software. This approach has become increasingly popular since the beginning of the pandemic, and it works well. You can think of in-person usability tests like going to a play and remote sessions as more like watching a movie. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. In-person usability research is a much richer experience. Stakeholders can experience the sessions with other stakeholders. You also get real-time reactions—including surprise, agreement, disagreement, and discussions about what they’re seeing. Much like going to a play, where audiences get to take in the stage, the costumes, the lighting, and the actors’ interactions, in-person research lets you see users up close, including their body language, how they interact with the moderator, and how the scene is set up.
If in-person usability testing is like watching a play—staged and controlled—then conducting usability testing in the field is like immersive theater where any two sessions might be very different from one another. You can take usability testing into the field by creating a replica of the space where users interact with the product and then conduct your research there. Or you can go out to meet users at their location to do your research. With either option, you get to see how things work in context, things come up that wouldn’t have in a lab environment—and conversion can shift in entirely different directions. As researchers, you have less control over how these sessions go, but this can sometimes help you understand users even better. Meeting users where they are can provide clues to the external forces that could be affecting how they use your product. In-person usability tests provide another level of detail that’s often missing from remote usability tests.
That’s not to say that the “movies”—remote sessions—aren’t a good option. Remote sessions can reach a wider audience. They allow a lot more stakeholders to be involved in the research and to see what’s going on. And they open the doors to a much wider geographical pool of users. But with any remote session there is the potential of time wasted if participants can’t log in or get their microphone working.
The benefit of usability testing, whether remote or in person, is that you get to see real users interact with the designs in real time, and you can ask them questions to understand their thought processes and grasp of the solution. This can help you not only identify problems but also glean why they’re problems in the first place. Furthermore, you can test hypotheses and gauge whether your thinking is correct. By the end of the sessions, you’ll have a much clearer picture of how usable the designs are and whether they work for their intended purposes. Act two is the heart of the story—where the excitement is—but there can be surprises too. This is equally true of usability tests. Often, participants will say unexpected things, which change the way that you look at things—and these twists in the story can move things in new directions.
Unfortunately, user research is sometimes seen as expendable. And too often usability testing is the only research process that some stakeholders think that they ever need. In fact, if the designs that you’re evaluating in the usability test aren’t grounded in a solid understanding of your users (foundational research), there’s not much to be gained by doing usability testing in the first place. That’s because you’re narrowing the focus of what you’re getting feedback on, without understanding the users’ needs. As a result, there’s no way of knowing whether the designs might solve a problem that users have. It’s only feedback on a particular design in the context of a usability test.
On the other hand, if you only do foundational research, while you might have set out to solve the right problem, you won’t know whether the thing that you’re building will actually solve that. This illustrates the importance of doing both foundational and directional research.
In act two, stakeholders will—hopefully—get to watch the story unfold in the user sessions, which creates the conflict and tension in the current design by surfacing their highs and lows. And in turn, this can help motivate stakeholders to address the issues that come up.
Act three: resolution
While the first two acts are about understanding the background and the tensions that can propel stakeholders into action, the third part is about resolving the problems from the first two acts. While it’s important to have an audience for the first two acts, it’s crucial that they stick around for the final act. That means the whole product team, including developers, UX practitioners, business analysts, delivery managers, product managers, and any other stakeholders that have a say in the next steps. It allows the whole team to hear users’ feedback together, ask questions, and discuss what’s possible within the project’s constraints. And it lets the UX research and design teams clarify, suggest alternatives, or give more context behind their decisions. So you can get everyone on the same page and get agreement on the way forward.
This act is mostly told in voiceover with some audience participation. The researcher is the narrator, who paints a picture of the issues and what the future of the product could look like given the things that the team has learned. They give the stakeholders their recommendations and their guidance on creating this vision.
Nancy Duarte in the Harvard Business Review offers an approach to structuring presentations that follow a persuasive story. “The most effective presenters use the same techniques as great storytellers: By reminding people of the status quo and then revealing the path to a better way, they set up a conflict that needs to be resolved,” writes Duarte. “That tension helps them persuade the audience to adopt a new mindset or behave differently.”
This type of structure aligns well with research results, and particularly results from usability tests. It provides evidence for “what is”—the problems that you’ve identified. And “what could be”—your recommendations on how to address them. And so on and so forth.
You can reinforce your recommendations with examples of things that competitors are doing that could address these issues or with examples where competitors are gaining an edge. Or they can be visual, like quick mockups of how a new design could look that solves a problem. These can help generate conversation and momentum. And this continues until the end of the session when you’ve wrapped everything up in the conclusion by summarizing the main issues and suggesting a way forward. This is the part where you reiterate the main themes or problems and what they mean for the product—the denouement of the story. This stage gives stakeholders the next steps and hopefully the momentum to take those steps!
While we are nearly at the end of this story, let’s reflect on the idea that user research is storytelling. All the elements of a good story are there in the three-act structure of user research:
- Act one: You meet the protagonists (the users) and the antagonists (the problems affecting users). This is the beginning of the plot. In act one, researchers might use methods including contextual inquiry, ethnography, diary studies, surveys, and analytics. The output of these methods can include personas, empathy maps, user journeys, and analytics dashboards.
- Act two: Next, there’s character development. There’s conflict and tension as the protagonists encounter problems and challenges, which they must overcome. In act two, researchers might use methods including usability testing, competitive benchmarking, and heuristics evaluation. The output of these can include usability findings reports, UX strategy documents, usability guidelines, and best practices.
- Act three: The protagonists triumph and you see what a better future looks like. In act three, researchers may use methods including presentation decks, storytelling, and digital media. The output of these can be: presentation decks, video clips, audio clips, and pictures.
The researcher has multiple roles: they’re the storyteller, the director, and the producer. The participants have a small role, but they are significant characters (in the research). And the stakeholders are the audience. But the most important thing is to get the story right and to use storytelling to tell users’ stories through research. By the end, the stakeholders should walk away with a purpose and an eagerness to resolve the product’s ills.
So the next time that you’re planning research with clients or you’re speaking to stakeholders about research that you’ve done, think about how you can weave in some storytelling. Ultimately, user research is a win-win for everyone, and you just need to get stakeholders interested in how the story ends.
From Beta to Bedrock: Build Products that Stick.
As a product builder over too many years to mention, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve seen promising ideas go from zero to hero in a few weeks, only to fizzle out within months.
Financial products, which is the field I work in, are no exception. With people’s real hard-earned money on the line, user expectations running high, and a crowded market, it’s tempting to throw as many features at the wall as possible and hope something sticks. But this approach is a recipe for disaster. Here’s why:
The pitfalls of feature-first development
When you start building a financial product from the ground up, or are migrating existing customer journeys from paper or telephony channels onto online banking or mobile apps, it’s easy to get caught up in the excitement of creating new features. You might think, “If I can just add one more thing that solves this particular user problem, they’ll love me!” But what happens when you inevitably hit a roadblock because the narcs (your security team!) don’t like it? When a hard-fought feature isn’t as popular as you thought, or it breaks due to unforeseen complexity?
This is where the concept of Minimum Viable Product (MVP) comes in. Jason Fried’s book Getting Real and his podcast Rework often touch on this idea, even if he doesn’t always call it that. An MVP is a product that provides just enough value to your users to keep them engaged, but not so much that it becomes overwhelming or difficult to maintain. It sounds like an easy concept but it requires a razor sharp eye, a ruthless edge and having the courage to stick by your opinion because it is easy to be seduced by “the Columbo Effect”… when there’s always “just one more thing…” that someone wants to add.
The problem with most finance apps, however, is that they often become a reflection of the internal politics of the business rather than an experience solely designed around the customer. This means that the focus is on delivering as many features and functionalities as possible to satisfy the needs and desires of competing internal departments, rather than providing a clear value proposition that is focused on what the people out there in the real world want. As a result, these products can very easily bloat to become a mixed bag of confusing, unrelated and ultimately unlovable customer experiences—a feature salad, you might say.
The importance of bedrock
So what’s a better approach? How can we build products that are stable, user-friendly, and—most importantly—stick?
That’s where the concept of “bedrock” comes in. Bedrock is the core element of your product that truly matters to users. It’s the fundamental building block that provides value and stays relevant over time.
In the world of retail banking, which is where I work, the bedrock has got to be in and around the regular servicing journeys. People open their current account once in a blue moon but they look at it every day. They sign up for a credit card every year or two, but they check their balance and pay their bill at least once a month.
Identifying the core tasks that people want to do and then relentlessly striving to make them easy to do, dependable, and trustworthy is where the gravy’s at.
But how do you get to bedrock? By focusing on the “MVP” approach, prioritizing simplicity, and iterating towards a clear value proposition. This means cutting out unnecessary features and focusing on delivering real value to your users.
It also means having some guts, because your colleagues might not always instantly share your vision to start with. And controversially, sometimes it can even mean making it clear to customers that you’re not going to come to their house and make their dinner. The occasional “opinionated user interface design” (i.e. clunky workaround for edge cases) might sometimes be what you need to use to test a concept or buy you space to work on something more important.
Practical strategies for building financial products that stick
So what are the key strategies I’ve learned from my own experience and research?
- Start with a clear “why”: What problem are you trying to solve? For whom? Make sure your mission is crystal clear before building anything. Make sure it aligns with your company’s objectives, too.
- Focus on a single, core feature and obsess on getting that right before moving on to something else: Resist the temptation to add too many features at once. Instead, choose one that delivers real value and iterate from there.
- Prioritize simplicity over complexity: Less is often more when it comes to financial products. Cut out unnecessary bells and whistles and keep the focus on what matters most.
- Embrace continuous iteration: Bedrock isn’t a fixed destination—it’s a dynamic process. Continuously gather user feedback, refine your product, and iterate towards that bedrock state.
- Stop, look and listen: Don’t just test your product as part of your delivery process—test it repeatedly in the field. Use it yourself. Run A/B tests. Gather user feedback. Talk to people who use it, and refine accordingly.
The bedrock paradox
There’s an interesting paradox at play here: building towards bedrock means sacrificing some short-term growth potential in favour of long-term stability. But the payoff is worth it—products built with a focus on bedrock will outlast and outperform their competitors, and deliver sustained value to users over time.
So, how do you start your journey towards bedrock? Take it one step at a time. Start by identifying those core elements that truly matter to your users. Focus on building and refining a single, powerful feature that delivers real value. And above all, test obsessively—for, in the words of Abraham Lincoln, Alan Kay, or Peter Drucker (whomever you believe!!), “The best way to predict the future is to create it.”
An Holistic Framework for Shared Design Leadership
Picture this: You’re in a meeting room at your tech company, and two people are having what looks like the same conversation about the same design problem. One is talking about whether the team has the right skills to tackle it. The other is diving deep into whether the solution actually solves the user’s problem. Same room, same problem, completely different lenses.
This is the beautiful, sometimes messy reality of having both a Design Manager and a Lead Designer on the same team. And if you’re wondering how to make this work without creating confusion, overlap, or the dreaded “too many cooks” scenario, you’re asking the right question.
The traditional answer has been to draw clean lines on an org chart. The Design Manager handles people, the Lead Designer handles craft. Problem solved, right? Except clean org charts are fantasy. In reality, both roles care deeply about team health, design quality, and shipping great work.
The magic happens when you embrace the overlap instead of fighting it—when you start thinking of your design org as a design organism.
The Anatomy of a Healthy Design Team
Here’s what I’ve learned from years of being on both sides of this equation: think of your design team as a living organism. The Design Manager tends to the mind (the psychological safety, the career growth, the team dynamics). The Lead Designer tends to the body (the craft skills, the design standards, the hands-on work that ships to users).
But just like mind and body aren’t completely separate systems, so, too, do these roles overlap in important ways. You can’t have a healthy person without both working in harmony. The trick is knowing where those overlaps are and how to navigate them gracefully.
When we look at how healthy teams actually function, three critical systems emerge. Each requires both roles to work together, but with one taking primary responsibility for keeping that system strong.
The Nervous System: People & Psychology
Primary caretaker: Design Manager
Supporting role: Lead Designer
The nervous system is all about signals, feedback, and psychological safety. When this system is healthy, information flows freely, people feel safe to take risks, and the team can adapt quickly to new challenges.
The Design Manager is the primary caretaker here. They’re monitoring the team’s psychological pulse, ensuring feedback loops are healthy, and creating the conditions for people to grow. They’re hosting career conversations, managing workload, and making sure no one burns out.
But the Lead Designer plays a crucial supporting role. They’re providing sensory input about craft development needs, spotting when someone’s design skills are stagnating, and helping identify growth opportunities that the Design Manager might miss.
Design Manager tends to:
- Career conversations and growth planning
- Team psychological safety and dynamics
- Workload management and resource allocation
- Performance reviews and feedback systems
- Creating learning opportunities
Lead Designer supports by:
- Providing craft-specific feedback on team member development
- Identifying design skill gaps and growth opportunities
- Offering design mentorship and guidance
- Signaling when team members are ready for more complex challenges
The Muscular System: Craft & Execution
Primary caretaker: Lead Designer
Supporting role: Design Manager
The muscular system is about strength, coordination, and skill development. When this system is healthy, the team can execute complex design work with precision, maintain consistent quality, and adapt their craft to new challenges.
The Lead Designer is the primary caretaker here. They’re setting design standards, providing craft coaching, and ensuring that shipping work meets the quality bar. They’re the ones who can tell you if a design decision is sound or if we’re solving the right problem.
But the Design Manager plays a crucial supporting role. They’re ensuring the team has the resources and support to do their best craft work, like proper nutrition and recovery time for an athlete.
Lead Designer tends to:
- Definition of design standards and system usage
- Feedback on what design work meets the standard
- Experience direction for the product
- Design decisions and product-wide alignment
- Innovation and craft advancement
Design Manager supports by:
- Ensuring design standards are understood and adopted across the team
- Confirming experience direction is being followed
- Supporting practices and systems that scale without bottlenecking
- Facilitating design alignment across teams
- Providing resources and removing obstacles to great craft work
The Circulatory System: Strategy & Flow
Shared caretakers: Both Design Manager and Lead Designer
The circulatory system is about how information, decisions, and energy flow through the team. When this system is healthy, strategic direction is clear, priorities are aligned, and the team can respond quickly to new opportunities or challenges.
This is where true partnership happens. Both roles are responsible for keeping the circulation strong, but they’re bringing different perspectives to the table.
Lead Designer contributes:
- User needs are met by the product
- Overall product quality and experience
- Strategic design initiatives
- Research-based user needs for each initiative
Design Manager contributes:
- Communication to team and stakeholders
- Stakeholder management and alignment
- Cross-functional team accountability
- Strategic business initiatives
Both collaborate on:
- Co-creation of strategy with leadership
- Team goals and prioritization approach
- Organizational structure decisions
- Success measures and frameworks
Keeping the Organism Healthy
The key to making this partnership sing is understanding that all three systems need to work together. A team with great craft skills but poor psychological safety will burn out. A team with great culture but weak craft execution will ship mediocre work. A team with both but poor strategic circulation will work hard on the wrong things.
Be Explicit About Which System You’re Tending
When you’re in a meeting about a design problem, it helps to acknowledge which system you’re primarily focused on. “I’m thinking about this from a team capacity perspective” (nervous system) or “I’m looking at this through the lens of user needs” (muscular system) gives everyone context for your input.
This isn’t about staying in your lane. It’s about being transparent as to which lens you’re using, so the other person knows how to best add their perspective.
Create Healthy Feedback Loops
The most successful partnerships I’ve seen establish clear feedback loops between the systems:
Nervous system signals to muscular system: “The team is struggling with confidence in their design skills” → Lead Designer provides more craft coaching and clearer standards.
Muscular system signals to nervous system: “The team’s craft skills are advancing faster than their project complexity” → Design Manager finds more challenging growth opportunities.
Both systems signal to circulatory system: “We’re seeing patterns in team health and craft development that suggest we need to adjust our strategic priorities.”
Handle Handoffs Gracefully
The most critical moments in this partnership are when something moves from one system to another. This might be when a design standard (muscular system) needs to be rolled out across the team (nervous system), or when a strategic initiative (circulatory system) needs specific craft execution (muscular system).
Make these transitions explicit. “I’ve defined the new component standards. Can you help me think through how to get the team up to speed?” or “We’ve agreed on this strategic direction. I’m going to focus on the specific user experience approach from here.”
Stay Curious, Not Territorial
The Design Manager who never thinks about craft, or the Lead Designer who never considers team dynamics, is like a doctor who only looks at one body system. Great design leadership requires both people to care about the whole organism, even when they’re not the primary caretaker.
This means asking questions rather than making assumptions. “What do you think about the team’s craft development in this area?” or “How do you see this impacting team morale and workload?” keeps both perspectives active in every decision.
When the Organism Gets Sick
Even with clear roles, this partnership can go sideways. Here are the most common failure modes I’ve seen:
System Isolation
The Design Manager focuses only on the nervous system and ignores craft development. The Lead Designer focuses only on the muscular system and ignores team dynamics. Both people retreat to their comfort zones and stop collaborating.
The symptoms: Team members get mixed messages, work quality suffers, morale drops.
The treatment: Reconnect around shared outcomes. What are you both trying to achieve? Usually it’s great design work that ships on time from a healthy team. Figure out how both systems serve that goal.
Poor Circulation
Strategic direction is unclear, priorities keep shifting, and neither role is taking responsibility for keeping information flowing.
The symptoms: Team members are confused about priorities, work gets duplicated or dropped, deadlines are missed.
The treatment: Explicitly assign responsibility for circulation. Who’s communicating what to whom? How often? What’s the feedback loop?
Autoimmune Response
One person feels threatened by the other’s expertise. The Design Manager thinks the Lead Designer is undermining their authority. The Lead Designer thinks the Design Manager doesn’t understand craft.
The symptoms: Defensive behavior, territorial disputes, team members caught in the middle.
The treatment: Remember that you’re both caretakers of the same organism. When one system fails, the whole team suffers. When both systems are healthy, the team thrives.
The Payoff
Yes, this model requires more communication. Yes, it requires both people to be secure enough to share responsibility for team health. But the payoff is worth it: better decisions, stronger teams, and design work that’s both excellent and sustainable.
When both roles are healthy and working well together, you get the best of both worlds: deep craft expertise and strong people leadership. When one person is out sick, on vacation, or overwhelmed, the other can help maintain the team’s health. When a decision requires both the people perspective and the craft perspective, you’ve got both right there in the room.
Most importantly, the framework scales. As your team grows, you can apply the same system thinking to new challenges. Need to launch a design system? Lead Designer tends to the muscular system (standards and implementation), Design Manager tends to the nervous system (team adoption and change management), and both tend to circulation (communication and stakeholder alignment).
The Bottom Line
The relationship between a Design Manager and Lead Designer isn’t about dividing territories. It’s about multiplying impact. When both roles understand they’re tending to different aspects of the same healthy organism, magic happens.
The mind and body work together. The team gets both the strategic thinking and the craft excellence they need. And most importantly, the work that ships to users benefits from both perspectives.
So the next time you’re in that meeting room, wondering why two people are talking about the same problem from different angles, remember: you’re watching shared leadership in action. And if it’s working well, both the mind and body of your design team are getting stronger.
Why Thought Leadership is the New PR
Why Thought Leadership is the New PR written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing
Listen to the full episode: Overview On this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Amy Rosenberg—seasoned PR strategist, agency founder, and author of “A Practical Guide to Public Relations for Businesses, Nonprofits, and PR Leaders.” Amy demystifies today’s PR landscape, explains why digital PR is now vital for Google and AI […]
Why Thought Leadership is the New PR written by John Jantsch read more at Duct Tape Marketing
Overview
On this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, John Jantsch interviews Amy Rosenberg—seasoned PR strategist, agency founder, and author of “A Practical Guide to Public Relations for Businesses, Nonprofits, and PR Leaders.” Amy demystifies today’s PR landscape, explains why digital PR is now vital for Google and AI visibility, and shares her practical approach to integrating thought leadership, content, and social media into campaigns that actually move the needle for brands of any size.
About the Guest
Amy Rosenberg is a veteran PR strategist and agency founder with decades of experience helping organizations of all sizes build visibility, credibility, and real-world results. She is the author of two books about PR, and a go-to resource for business owners and PR professionals seeking honest, actionable guidance in a rapidly changing media landscape.
- Website: amyrosenberg.com
- LinkedIn: Amy Rosenberg
- Resources & Blog: PR Marketplace
- Book: “A Practical Guide to Public Relations for Businesses, Nonprofits, and PR Leaders”
Actionable Insights
- You don’t always need PR—start by building a solid online presence and content base before layering in media outreach.
- Modern PR is more than press releases; it’s about thought leadership, digital media coverage, and leveraging those wins for SEO and AI search visibility.
- High domain authority media links are essential—these are trusted by both Google and AI and provide lasting credibility.
- Thought leadership is not just for CEOs—start with strong blog content, pitch expert articles, and build step by step.
- Podcasts are a powerful and efficient PR channel that drive backlinks, content, and allow leaders to practice their message.
- Social media should be systematized—pick your platforms, create rules for content sharing, and always tag media and partners.
- PR impact can be measured: use tools like Muckrack to connect coverage with Google Analytics and tie PR wins to business goals.
- If you’re starting from zero, a monthly blogging program is the best place to begin—then layer in PR as your strategy and resources grow.
Great Moments (with Timestamps)
- 00:55 – Do You Really Need PR?
Amy explains why sometimes it’s best to start with your online presence before pursuing PR. - 01:51 – PR and AI Search
Why digital PR and authentic media coverage are now crucial for Google and AI visibility. - 03:40 – What is PR in 2025?
Amy demystifies modern PR—from media relations to crisis comms and strategy. - 05:46 – PR and SEO
How high authority media coverage drives both search and credibility. - 07:16 – Thought Leadership for All
Practical steps for building authority, even if you’re not a well-known CEO. - 10:29 – The Power of Podcasts
Why podcast guesting is a high-ROI PR move for content and reputation. - 12:49 – Social Media Systems
How to systematize content, media tagging, and reputation management. - 14:29 – Measuring PR
How to connect PR wins with analytics and business outcomes. - 17:39 – The Best First Step
Amy’s advice: Start with monthly blogging, then layer in PR and keep your marketing calendar organized.
Insights
“You don’t always need PR—focus on building a solid online presence and content before going after media.”
“Authentic media coverage and thought leadership now drive both SEO and AI search visibility.”
“Podcasts are high-authority PR: great for backlinks, content, and practicing your message.”
“Systematizing your social media is key—pick platforms, create rules, and make your media wins visible.”
“You can measure PR’s impact: connect wins to real business results with analytics and clear goals.”
Sponsored by:
Morningmate is the all-in-one work management platform for client-facing teams.
Manage projects, chat, and files in one place—simple to use and scalable as you grow.
John Jantsch (00:01.496)
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Jantsch. My guest today is Amy Rosenberg. She’s a seasoned PR strategist, agency founder and author with deep expertise in building visibility and credibility for organizations of all sizes. We are going to talk about her latest book, A Practical Guide to Public Relations for Businesses, Nonprofits and PR Leaders. So Amy, welcome to the show.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (00:28.578)
Hi, thanks for having me.
John Jantsch (00:30.912)
So you cover a lot of ground on the book. mean, it’s something that’s called a practical guide is usually pretty broad. I mean, traditional media relations, obviously SEOs in there, AIs in there. What are the most common misconceptions basically when it comes to PR that you see businesses still having in 2025?
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (00:55.96)
Well, I’m gonna laugh. If people still think that we need to do press releases, that’s like an old misconception that like people should actually be over that by now. But mainly, this is gonna be funny. You don’t always need PR. That’s kind of the thing. So here’s the thing. And that’s the whole book title, practical. We need to be practical about things. We don’t need to do everything. And sometimes we can do PR. Sometimes we can do a press release, but.
We need to kind of like think about it first and get things organized first. And actually, we need to have ideally a nice online presence first. And then we can go and do some PR. And right now, PR is actually helping with AI search. So showing up in AI. So the old story used to be, PR helps with SEO, which is showing up in Google.
John Jantsch (01:43.47)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (01:51.544)
But now, well, we still want to show up high in Google. And we can do that through digital PR. And I can talk about how. But now, apparently, PR is very important for AI search. But of course, I’m going to have to dig into that because nobody is using that AI.
John Jantsch (02:08.066)
Well, I think there’s no question that the AI crawlers, if we’re going to call them that, are really looking at trusted media sources to get a lot of their information. there’s no mystery, I think, in why that’s become more important.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (02:26.284)
Yeah, and so it’s always been a mystery to talk about PR because it, well, it’s PR people actually like to make it very mysterious. So what I tried to do with my first book and then also now my second is to demystify it. So the first book is for PR people because I started to see a lot of them actually weren’t trained and there’s kind of a right way and a wrong way to do things. And oftentimes when we have rules,
that kind of helps us in a hard field and it kind of gives us some guidelines to stick by. But as I finished that book, I was thinking, well, this book is really possibly not helpful for business owners because, well, I’m giving a little bit too many examples that the PR people need. And so this book, like five years later, six years later, is much more streamlined, stripped down on the media relations tactics.
really actually leads with thought leadership and how thought leadership, it’s always been a part of PR, but now thought leadership is really the key to getting up higher on Google and AI.
John Jantsch (03:40.366)
All right, I want to come back to that. But I think part of the confusion is, you know, in the old days, before we had all these digital platforms, it was really more of a, it was very much a relationship game. was, know, who you knew at the publications because they were very gated. You know, how you could spin a story in a way that was meaningful to a journalist. You those were the real skills. But then all of sudden, you know,
We’ve got Facebook, or we’ve got blogs, and we’ve got Reddit, and we’ve got all these other things that essentially can be lumped into PR. I mean, how do you help people kind of say what PR actually is?
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (04:19.138)
Well, good question. And I love that because it’s I do. Honestly, I kind of do want a little bit of silo or separation. We can take a PR campaign and we can transform it into content to anything. Right. But PR typically is like you’re saying the media relations aspect. But also there’s a lot of more sometimes some strategy in there.
some crisis comms, some crisis prep. So sometimes we’ll know we can pick out our negative aspects and get organized around those and then actually not necessarily spin it, but kind of look at the positive side of our negative aspects and put the stories around those.
John Jantsch (05:09.422)
So you already mentioned SEO and I’m seeing a lot of SEO folks, know, it used to just be, we could get keyword rankings by doing X, Y, and Z all day long. That’s how it worked. And I’ve seen certainly a lot of them say that’s not working so well anymore. And I see a lot of SEO people talking more about PR, not as a siloed practice, but as a part of SEO now. And then you make that case certainly in the book.
Do you have an example of where integrating SEO or really thinking like PR as a core component of SEO made a measurable difference?
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (05:46.788)
Well, I feel like right now I’m the worst salesperson ever and I’m the one that will never tout my profession too much because it’s a little salesy. But a lot of SEO people have been saying that PR is the actual driver of authentic links. So here’s the thing, Google knows when you’re buying links, sometimes. So you can kind of like forget,
John Jantsch (06:06.222)
Yeah, totally.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (06:16.792)
sponsored articles sometimes, depending. And then we just need to get our clients, if we can, ourselves on high domain authority websites. And the media actually has a higher domain authority than other websites. So not only are they more credible, well, some media, more credible in the public’s eye.
they’re more credible in Google’s eyes. So if you’re showing up in Google, then ideally you would show up in an AI chat box as well. But I mean, that to me is a little nebulous. I feel like more research needs to be done on that. you don’t get, anyway, you don’t get all of those links that you don’t get to review in AI. So it’s just gonna get really much more strategic and thoughtful. And that is…
really what PR people are good at.
John Jantsch (07:16.28)
So talk a little bit more about the, the idea of thought leadership. put, know, certainly there’s, there’s certain types of businesses, certain types of industries. makes a ton of sense, know, nonprofits. certainly makes a ton of sense. Do you feel like that, that needs to be, a strategic component of just about every business? mean, not just that person that’s like, I’m, know, I’m this well-known CEO with a book and blah, blah, but just like every business almost has to have like.
their version of an influencer that is, you know, that’s seen in the media.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (07:51.788)
Yeah, it would be great if they could. let me just back up a little bit. So thought leadership, so B2B media or thought leadership type of media, that’s an easier way to do PR. It’s easier to get results for that. So often we are not looking at relationships. We are looking at streamlining. want, because we can’t make relationships with everybody. So we need to have good ways to scale our PR campaigns.
John Jantsch (08:02.926)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (08:18.07)
And so when we’re doing thought leadership, that’s positioning a person, whether it’s an article or on the stage, we are streamlining everything because you’re getting a lot more value actually in Google’s eyes because it all ties back to, I don’t know if you know the acronym EAT, I’m gonna mess about, but that’s what thought leadership is, is EAT, which is the
John Jantsch (08:41.08)
Sure, of course.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (08:47.46)
what Google looks for. have human reviewers and they’re looking for anyone that’s writing on a topic to have experience, authority, trust, and there was another one. don’t remember. Two T’s.
John Jantsch (09:00.406)
It’s the other E, the other E they add is expertise. So it’s experience, expertise, authority, and trust. And so that’s where obviously the media plays a big role, but also being able to say, I did this thing rather than telling somebody how to do it. Case studies, things of that nature have become really.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (09:04.06)
thank you.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (09:20.374)
Yeah, and I just want to add that we don’t, we need to kind of start somewhere, right? We don’t need to start. A lot of people get really tripped up over thought leadership because first of all, I mentioned this stage. Well, a lot of my clients are shy and they are running companies, they’re CEOs and they’re busy. know, who really has time to go out and do a lot of speaking engagements, right? So sometimes we will do that, but often we start, you got to start somewhere again. So we start with
content and this is where we’re doing great blogs from the CEO and then we’re taking that and turning it into a press article and then the press Article can run ideally on a high domain authority website and then our CEO doesn’t have to go anywhere like for us We’re really all about efficiencies, too. So and I feel like my clients they don’t Maybe they don’t have time to to get on a stage or
or they don’t want to. So that’s where this kind of like practical approach to public relations comes in.
John Jantsch (10:29.518)
How do you, I’m going to go through a couple of categories or a couple of platforms, should say, or channels, maybe is a better word, and relate them to PR. You know, I, I, you know, we’re on a podcast today, recording this. I happen to think podcasts is amazing channel for thought leadership, for exposure, for backlinks, for content creation that really is not a huge lift for a lot of people, you know, to come and do those. How do you work podcasts or being a guest?
more specifically on a podcast into your overall PR world.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (11:03.46)
Good question. So first of all, they are huge for building domain authority or for getting SEO because, know, so often what we will do is podcasts are part of the whole thing. So we really get detailed with our media lists and this is where we have all of our lists, but we do outline DA. So to tell you the truth, before I decided to do, well, thank you for having me on the podcast.
John Jantsch (11:30.294)
Yeah.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (11:31.34)
I looked and you have a good DA, you have a really good like 54, which for my agency, I’m at like 20 something and I’m a small agency. So you are great. And then the media, they’re around 80 to 100. so we look at that and then for some clients, again, they don’t wanna be too, they’re busy, we don’t wanna bug them. And so we will vet.
John Jantsch (11:45.582)
in 70s, 80s, yeah.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (12:00.258)
where we replace them, and then we will also think about it as a way to practice our talking points. So this is where, again, starting somewhere. So if we do wanna go and do a speaking engagement, we do need a little visibility first to get our client accepted. So we start with podcasts, actually. And then sometimes, again, podcasts are more efficient to just keep doing those.
John Jantsch (12:07.597)
Yeah.
John Jantsch (12:23.052)
Mm-hmm.
John Jantsch (12:30.168)
Yeah. Yeah. So, so let’s jump to another one. Social media. think for a lot of PR people, it’s kind of a double-edged sword from a reputation standpoint. how do you view or how do you advise clients to, work social media into their overall marketing slash PR type of plans?
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (12:49.496)
Well, again, I don’t want to say again because I’ve never said this before, but I noticed that you do a lot of systems work. so we can’t busy people, especially myself. We can’t do anything without systems. So and so it might not be quote unquote strategic, but we need to get things done. And we do need some visibility on some of the platforms, not all of them. So we’ll look at a client will think, OK, on what platforms do you want to
should they be on and then we will create kind of rules around how often we will post about something and a rule would be for example three posts per blog post and then another rule in different writing right you have to write the post differently and then another rule would be at least one if not two posts per media hit and we have to do those because
we have to thank the media and tag them. So anyway, so we have those systems and oftentimes we were a PR firm. So a lot of PR people will say, well, you do social, that’s your job. You shouldn’t silo it. Well, okay, but here’s the thing. Sometimes people just hire us for PR and then we notice they’re not doing social and we might need them to because we’re looking at a crisis down the road. So we need some positive social now.
John Jantsch (14:16.077)
Mm.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (14:18.252)
And so we will just kind of say, okay, here’s our system. This is what we’re doing around this social and kind of get it done.
John Jantsch (14:29.74)
So PR, I know you’re going to have an answer for this, but I got to set it up this way. know, PR is often looked at as, you know, as a nice to have, you know, you can’t measure it. doesn’t, it doesn’t drive sales necessarily. How do you get a client over that or how do you actually prove to them that the PR is valuable?
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (14:50.308)
Well, again, I just love your questions. Well, like I said, I’m the worst salesperson ever. So I don’t. I don’t fight people. don’t have. Nobody has time for that also. And then also, in a way, they might be right. We have to look at the budget. It’s all about your budget and your bandwidth. So some clients we can’t we can’t work with everybody. That’s why we wrote. I wrote the book. But also we would like to work with.
And it doesn’t matter what we want. It’s who is ready for a PR and who’s not. And it’s gotta be somebody who you’ve gotta get your stuff together first, which is your base, which is content, I think, in this day and age. We’ve gotta have like a nice kind of streamlined thing going so that you’re in the groove. We’ve gotta feed the beast. Then we can layer in some PR. And then we can put PR again on a program.
John Jantsch (15:31.821)
You
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (15:46.69)
where we can look at it like we have goals. They could be almost like sales quota goals, but for PR or content where we say, okay, we’re gonna just, we’re gonna do one campaign per quarter and that might just be enough. And we just have it all scheduled out so that we’re not feeling like we’re missing something. But we can’t really, we’re trying to measure our results, right?
So we do have a great database called Muckrack that is our software that connects with our clients’ Google Analytics. And so we can track, like, hey, we have this online school. So we can track where our coverage landed in terms of the location. And we can track the enrollment for the school by location. So you can get really granular with that.
John Jantsch (16:19.681)
Mm-hmm.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (16:45.326)
But at the end of the day, we’re all working together as a marketing team in-house, you know, marketing team. And we’re not going to say it was from the PR.
John Jantsch (16:54.958)
Yeah, right. So, all right. People listening today, we’ve been kind of all over the place talking about PR, SEO, a little bit about AI, content, social. If somebody’s out there and they’re thinking, you know, I need to do more in this, I mean, is there a single most important thing they can focus on, say, the next six months in your view? If somebody said, hey, I want to get the most out of it. And again, I’m not saying, I mean, maybe the best thing they can do is hire you.
But, you know, short of that, are there things that you’re telling people that, you need to either stop doing this and start doing this, you know, over the next six months that you think would move the needle the most?
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (17:39.204)
So if you’re really just not doing anything, I would just say try and get yourself on a monthly blogging program for SEO. So then you might not consider that PR. But once you kind of get that going, then you can look at like the marketing calendar and kind of think about how when you can do some PR, when you can do some proactive PR. And if you look, I have a…
calendar on my website that is free. need to make sure that you can access the link, but it has, you could fill out your marketing calendar and I call it marketing, but a lot of it is PR. But to be clear, PR looks a little different these days. It’s not a press release per se. It’s an article or this, that, and the other. So if you’re interested in learning more, there’s a lot of great resources.
John Jantsch (18:28.354)
Yeah. Yeah.
John Jantsch (18:38.296)
Well, so where would you invite people to kind of find? I know we’re going to have links. We have a link to your blog and PR resources. I see. So are there, is there anywhere you’d invite people to connect with you and find out more about the book itself?
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (18:52.196)
Well, I’d love if they would like to connect on LinkedIn. And I’m doing a lot of posts there about PR. And then, yeah, if they want to go to the resources section, and it might actually be under Marketplace on my website, you can buy books there. But also, we have other things there that are free, like a bunch of videos that can walk you through the process.
John Jantsch (19:21.196)
Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast and hopefully we’ll run into you one of these days soon out there on the road.
Amy Rosenberg (She/Her) (19:29.336)
Yay, thank you. Thanks for having me.
Sign up to receive email updates
Enter your name and email address below and I’ll send you periodic updates about the podcast.
Star Trek: Strange New Worlds Season 3 Episode 10 Review — New Life and New Civilizations
This Star Trek: Strange New Worlds review contains spoilers for season 3 episode 10. For all that it centers on a character whose life we know will end in horrific pain and disfigurement, Star Trek: Strange New Worlds isn’t a show that often embraces the darker side of storytelling. Sure, every so often there are episodes […]
The post Star Trek: Strange New Worlds Season 3 Episode 10 Review — New Life and New Civilizations appeared first on Den of Geek.
It’s fashionable nowadays to criticize Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson’s acting choices, but there was a time not long ago where the wrestler-turned-actor’s natural charisma garnered somewhat different notices. While never celebrated as a prospective awards contender, he was still cheered on as “franchise viagra” on SNL, and if not celebrated by critics, then definitely respected for a boundless charisma and a nature so sunny that “even when he’s not wearing a smile, his facial muscles carry the ghost of one.”
Which is what makes seeing that smile turned mirthless in the latest trailer for Benny Safdie’s The Smashing Machine seem haunted and eerie.
“For me, a day without pain is like a day without sunshine,” Johnson’s Mark Kerr says in the new teaser. A day without pain, or sunshine, also feels like anathema to Johnson’s onscreen persona of the last 20 or so years—which might be why the role is already earning raves out of Venice where the film also picked up the Silver Lion for Safdie’s direction. Somehow, it would seem, sun in that smile has gone out. It’s been replaced by a steel we have not seen since Pain & Gain.
In Smashing Machine, Johnson plays Kerr, a two-time UFC Heavyweight champion and former wrestler who was the subject of a 2002 HBO documentary of the same name. A mixed martial artist who admitted to struggling with substance abuse and professional setbacks, Kerr appears an apropos subject matter for Safdie. The previous two films he co-directed with brother Josh, Good Time and Uncut Gems, were relentlessly bleak in their tales which intersected with the sports world, and together they promise a film that’s likely thornier than the conventional sports movie trailer Smashing Machine offers above.
cnx({
playerId: “106e33c0-3911-473c-b599-b1426db57530”,
}).render(“0270c398a82f44f49c23c16122516796”);
});
Johnson definitely shows a side in this sizzle reel we haven’t seen from him in over a decade. Here is the bold and eccentric character actor who could steal scenes from John Travolta in conventional studio fare like Be Cool, and be the heart of the more enigmatic Southland Tales. He even allowed himself to become the clay with which Michael Bay would paint his scathing portrait of American greed and arrogance in Pain & Gain.
Since the beginning of his pivot from wrestling to film acting, Johnson has proven to have deep pools of charisma and a more ambiguous reserve of talent that has only been occasionally tapped. Yet there’s a reason Arnold Schwarzenegger seemed to designate him heir apparent, even if in lighthearted if energetic schlock like The Rundown.
Johnson has chosen not to deeply tap into that talent over the last 12 years, but it was there faintly when getting to riff on Big in Jumanji, and it could have been there when acting opposite talents like Emily Blunt. Indeed, the pair worked together in 2021’s Jungle Cruise, a by the numbers studio product that asked Johnson and Blunt to, in theory, modernize Bogie and Hepburn, but in truth amounted to glorified cast members on a theme park ride.
Yet in this new Smashing Machine trailer, the pair suggest tangible chemistry when Blunt’s Dawn tends to a wounded boyfriend with empathy but also a guarded weariness. Johnson and Blunt both appear out of their respective milieus in the setting of gritty drama or grittier gym. Granted, we’ve seen Blunt adapt between disparate roles and genres before—including opposite Benny Safdie in a quite different biopic, Christopher Nolan’s Oppenheimer—but having real, pained sparks with Johnson marks something new. With any luck, it’ll hit as hard as Kerr in the octagon.
A24 releases Smashing Machine on Oct. 3.
The post See Dwayne Johnson and Emily Blunt Like Never Before in The Smashing Machine Trailer appeared first on Den of Geek.
Undercover divers find fatal flaws in Egypt’s dive boat industry
German magazine stern and broadcaster RTL have confirmed what Green Prophet has reported for months — the sinking of Egypt’s Sea Story dive yacht in November 2024, which killed 11 people, was no freak accident. Their undercover investigation reveals the captain had no licence, the operator lacked legal authorisation, and the vessel had serious stability flaws. A wider probe of 17 Red Sea liveaboard boats found every one had dangerous safety deficiencies, echoing Green Prophet’s earlier coverage of Egypt’s dive tourism safety crisis.
The post Undercover divers find fatal flaws in Egypt’s dive boat industry appeared first on Green Prophet.
The Avantguard sunglasses
As the light gets lower and the days grow shorter, sunglasses become less of a summer fling and more of an everyday essential. When the world was more naive, entrepreneurs made sustainable shades out of wood. Now the The Avantguard—a woman-owned luxury eyewear brand founded by entrepreneur and philanthropist Faiza Seth—is betting that the accessory you reach for most should also be the one you feel best about. Its new Autumn/Winter Edit shows how eco-luxury can be more than a mood board: it can be a measurable design choice.
Materials with intent. Instead of relying on virgin, petroleum-based plastics, The Avantguard frames are crafted from biodegradable, recycled, and plant-based acetates. The goal: cut fossil inputs, keep the hand-feel and durability luxury frames demand, and design from the start for lower impact.
Every pair ships with UV400 lenses for full-spectrum UV defense and blue-light protection—a detail that traces back to Seth’s personal experience with early-stage cataracts and her desire to blend medical prudence with everyday elegance. Circular by design. Beyond the frames, the brand leans into plastic-free, recyclable, and reusable packaging and a partnership with AirRobe, which makes it easy to resell or rehome glasses for a second life. That’s a practical nudge toward longevity and waste reduction.
Luxury that lasts. The collection favors timeless silhouettes over trend churn—an underrated sustainability lever. As Seth puts it: “For me, it’s about buying better, buying less, and investing in products that stand the test of time.”
From rich tortoiseshells to smoky, translucent hues, the palette channels changing light, bark, loam, and sky—frames that feel at home on a forest walk or a weekday commute.
Why this qualifies as a sustainable idea (not just sustainable styling)
Yarrow glasses
Material substitution: shifting from conventional plastics to plant-based/biodegradable and recycled acetates reduces dependence on virgin petrochemistry. Use-phase health benefit: UV400 + blue-light filtering supports long, frequent wear—extending product life by making the functional case for sunglasses year-round. System thinking: circular pathways (resale/rehome) and low-waste packaging mean the sustainability story doesn’t stop at checkout. Durability and design for keeps: classic silhouettes curb the “buy-discard-repeat” loop that dominates accessories.
The Avantguard’s Autumn/Winter Edit doesn’t treat sustainability as a seasonal color; it treats it as a product requirement—materials, packaging, and circularity all pulling in the same direction. If eco-luxury is to mean anything in 2025, it should look a lot like this: fewer, better things that protect your eyes, respect the planet, and still feel beautiful in the hand.
Editor’s note: we will update readers after hands-on testing of a pair from the Autumn Edit.
The post Autumn shades, elevated: why The Avantguard’s new sunglasses are a genuinely sustainable idea appeared first on Green Prophet.
Perseverance Rover Uncovers Ancient Martian Chemistry — And Raises the Question: Could This Hint at Past Life?
On Earth, similar mineral–organic interactions can be biological or abiotic. In Jezero Crater, the long geological timescales suggest the reduced vivianite and sulfides may have formed without biology — but organic compounds could still have driven the chemistry.
The post Perseverance Rover Uncovers Ancient Martian Chemistry — And Raises the Question: Could This Hint at Past Life? appeared first on Green Prophet.
The Avantguard sunglasses
As the light gets lower and the days grow shorter, sunglasses become less of a summer fling and more of an everyday essential. When the world was more naive, entrepreneurs made sustainable shades out of wood. Now the The Avantguard—a woman-owned luxury eyewear brand founded by entrepreneur and philanthropist Faiza Seth—is betting that the accessory you reach for most should also be the one you feel best about. Its new Autumn/Winter Edit shows how eco-luxury can be more than a mood board: it can be a measurable design choice.
Materials with intent. Instead of relying on virgin, petroleum-based plastics, The Avantguard frames are crafted from biodegradable, recycled, and plant-based acetates. The goal: cut fossil inputs, keep the hand-feel and durability luxury frames demand, and design from the start for lower impact.
Every pair ships with UV400 lenses for full-spectrum UV defense and blue-light protection—a detail that traces back to Seth’s personal experience with early-stage cataracts and her desire to blend medical prudence with everyday elegance. Circular by design. Beyond the frames, the brand leans into plastic-free, recyclable, and reusable packaging and a partnership with AirRobe, which makes it easy to resell or rehome glasses for a second life. That’s a practical nudge toward longevity and waste reduction.
Luxury that lasts. The collection favors timeless silhouettes over trend churn—an underrated sustainability lever. As Seth puts it: “For me, it’s about buying better, buying less, and investing in products that stand the test of time.”
From rich tortoiseshells to smoky, translucent hues, the palette channels changing light, bark, loam, and sky—frames that feel at home on a forest walk or a weekday commute.
Why this qualifies as a sustainable idea (not just sustainable styling)
Yarrow glasses
Material substitution: shifting from conventional plastics to plant-based/biodegradable and recycled acetates reduces dependence on virgin petrochemistry. Use-phase health benefit: UV400 + blue-light filtering supports long, frequent wear—extending product life by making the functional case for sunglasses year-round. System thinking: circular pathways (resale/rehome) and low-waste packaging mean the sustainability story doesn’t stop at checkout. Durability and design for keeps: classic silhouettes curb the “buy-discard-repeat” loop that dominates accessories.
The Avantguard’s Autumn/Winter Edit doesn’t treat sustainability as a seasonal color; it treats it as a product requirement—materials, packaging, and circularity all pulling in the same direction. If eco-luxury is to mean anything in 2025, it should look a lot like this: fewer, better things that protect your eyes, respect the planet, and still feel beautiful in the hand.
Editor’s note: we will update readers after hands-on testing of a pair from the Autumn Edit.
The post Autumn shades, elevated: why The Avantguard’s new sunglasses are a genuinely sustainable idea appeared first on Green Prophet.
Hemp Textiles Pave the Way for a Regenerative Economy
We have the opportunity at Anact, as a nimble and emerging brand, to set the standard for how things should be. This is the beauty of being a start-up in an industry that has great potential to impact sustainability with hemp and regenerative practices. We are creating an ecosystem that is value-added for farmers, employees, customers, banks, and more, which will only be made possible with capital investment and supportive policy.
The post Hemp Textiles Pave the Way for a Regenerative Economy appeared first on Green Prophet.
The Avantguard sunglasses
As the light gets lower and the days grow shorter, sunglasses become less of a summer fling and more of an everyday essential. When the world was more naive, entrepreneurs made sustainable shades out of wood. Now the The Avantguard—a woman-owned luxury eyewear brand founded by entrepreneur and philanthropist Faiza Seth—is betting that the accessory you reach for most should also be the one you feel best about. Its new Autumn/Winter Edit shows how eco-luxury can be more than a mood board: it can be a measurable design choice.
Materials with intent. Instead of relying on virgin, petroleum-based plastics, The Avantguard frames are crafted from biodegradable, recycled, and plant-based acetates. The goal: cut fossil inputs, keep the hand-feel and durability luxury frames demand, and design from the start for lower impact.
Every pair ships with UV400 lenses for full-spectrum UV defense and blue-light protection—a detail that traces back to Seth’s personal experience with early-stage cataracts and her desire to blend medical prudence with everyday elegance. Circular by design. Beyond the frames, the brand leans into plastic-free, recyclable, and reusable packaging and a partnership with AirRobe, which makes it easy to resell or rehome glasses for a second life. That’s a practical nudge toward longevity and waste reduction.
Luxury that lasts. The collection favors timeless silhouettes over trend churn—an underrated sustainability lever. As Seth puts it: “For me, it’s about buying better, buying less, and investing in products that stand the test of time.”
From rich tortoiseshells to smoky, translucent hues, the palette channels changing light, bark, loam, and sky—frames that feel at home on a forest walk or a weekday commute.
Why this qualifies as a sustainable idea (not just sustainable styling)
Yarrow glasses
Material substitution: shifting from conventional plastics to plant-based/biodegradable and recycled acetates reduces dependence on virgin petrochemistry. Use-phase health benefit: UV400 + blue-light filtering supports long, frequent wear—extending product life by making the functional case for sunglasses year-round. System thinking: circular pathways (resale/rehome) and low-waste packaging mean the sustainability story doesn’t stop at checkout. Durability and design for keeps: classic silhouettes curb the “buy-discard-repeat” loop that dominates accessories.
The Avantguard’s Autumn/Winter Edit doesn’t treat sustainability as a seasonal color; it treats it as a product requirement—materials, packaging, and circularity all pulling in the same direction. If eco-luxury is to mean anything in 2025, it should look a lot like this: fewer, better things that protect your eyes, respect the planet, and still feel beautiful in the hand.
Editor’s note: we will update readers after hands-on testing of a pair from the Autumn Edit.
The post Autumn shades, elevated: why The Avantguard’s new sunglasses are a genuinely sustainable idea appeared first on Green Prophet.
Autumn shades, elevated: why The Avantguard’s new sunglasses are a genuinely sustainable idea
From rich tortoiseshells to smoky, translucent hues, the palette channels changing light, bark, loam, and sky—frames that feel at home on a forest walk or a weekday commute.
The post Autumn shades, elevated: why The Avantguard’s new sunglasses are a genuinely sustainable idea appeared first on Green Prophet.
The Avantguard sunglasses
As the light gets lower and the days grow shorter, sunglasses become less of a summer fling and more of an everyday essential. When the world was more naive, entrepreneurs made sustainable shades out of wood. Now the The Avantguard—a woman-owned luxury eyewear brand founded by entrepreneur and philanthropist Faiza Seth—is betting that the accessory you reach for most should also be the one you feel best about. Its new Autumn/Winter Edit shows how eco-luxury can be more than a mood board: it can be a measurable design choice.
Materials with intent. Instead of relying on virgin, petroleum-based plastics, The Avantguard frames are crafted from biodegradable, recycled, and plant-based acetates. The goal: cut fossil inputs, keep the hand-feel and durability luxury frames demand, and design from the start for lower impact.
Every pair ships with UV400 lenses for full-spectrum UV defense and blue-light protection—a detail that traces back to Seth’s personal experience with early-stage cataracts and her desire to blend medical prudence with everyday elegance. Circular by design. Beyond the frames, the brand leans into plastic-free, recyclable, and reusable packaging and a partnership with AirRobe, which makes it easy to resell or rehome glasses for a second life. That’s a practical nudge toward longevity and waste reduction.
Luxury that lasts. The collection favors timeless silhouettes over trend churn—an underrated sustainability lever. As Seth puts it: “For me, it’s about buying better, buying less, and investing in products that stand the test of time.”
From rich tortoiseshells to smoky, translucent hues, the palette channels changing light, bark, loam, and sky—frames that feel at home on a forest walk or a weekday commute.
Why this qualifies as a sustainable idea (not just sustainable styling)
Yarrow glasses
Material substitution: shifting from conventional plastics to plant-based/biodegradable and recycled acetates reduces dependence on virgin petrochemistry. Use-phase health benefit: UV400 + blue-light filtering supports long, frequent wear—extending product life by making the functional case for sunglasses year-round. System thinking: circular pathways (resale/rehome) and low-waste packaging mean the sustainability story doesn’t stop at checkout. Durability and design for keeps: classic silhouettes curb the “buy-discard-repeat” loop that dominates accessories.
The Avantguard’s Autumn/Winter Edit doesn’t treat sustainability as a seasonal color; it treats it as a product requirement—materials, packaging, and circularity all pulling in the same direction. If eco-luxury is to mean anything in 2025, it should look a lot like this: fewer, better things that protect your eyes, respect the planet, and still feel beautiful in the hand.
Editor’s note: we will update readers after hands-on testing of a pair from the Autumn Edit.
The post Autumn shades, elevated: why The Avantguard’s new sunglasses are a genuinely sustainable idea appeared first on Green Prophet.







